EARLY ALPHA - Name TBD

[GermanJoey]

eh, sorry to burst your bubble but .... Railroads only travel 10 tiles, regardless of speed. A 2 move unit doesn't move 20 tiles on a railroad, it still moves 10 tiles.

At most, perhaps, a Commando unit could move 5 tiles on its own land, and then 10 tiles on an enemy Railroad.

Max Commando movement tiles in BTS = 15/ (5 road + 10 RR)

Max Commando tiles in FFH2 = 21 (a 4 mover with Mobility 1+2, and Haste, w/ Commando moving on enemy roads)

Right, which is why you can take Morale once your movement has been cached to get another 10 moves. So, 8 from transport + 10 from first 10 moves + 10 moves from Morale = 28 moves.

[Tasunke]

8 moves from the Transport ship? (so this is assuming unloading into a friendly city from across the sea yes?)

Sounds like Max u can get is 20 into enemy lands, and only with a GG unit (Move commando RR, then take morale and move again ---> which operates similarly to haste in a way ... but its only for 1 unit) --> But that's not a whole stack, its just a single unit.

Meanwhile you can have an entire STACK in FFH2 have 6 movement + 3 move per road (engi+commando), or 18 reliable movement into-enemy territory ... or 21 tiles with haste. and 24 tiles with Hippus Warcry ;P

If you turn that into an amphibious invasion ... Man of War has 5 movement base, +1 w/ Fair winds, +1 w/ Longshoreman, +1 w/ Circumnav, +2 with Navigation promos ... (which are fairly easy to get with high XP strategies in FFH2) that is 10 movement.

So max movement of an FFH2 STACK is 34 tiles ;P

and units mutated into 'light' (as opposed to heavy) get a whopping 37 tiles in that situation.

---> Actually max movement of a stack in BTS is 23 tiles ... 8 move transport, 5 move roads, 10 move Railroad. Something so rare and awesome I'd pay good money to see it

( which makes max movement of a great general ... a whopping 33 tiles! )

[Qgqqqqq]

The actual way in which morale interacts with railroads is slightly different than you'd expect, because of the way railroads deduct movement points. It's explained by Sevenspirits sometime during PBEM19, but I couldn't find the post.

I believe FFH2 Galleons are only 3 base moves, by the way.

Galleons are 5 moves base, 6 effective with Longshoreman, having checked. A late-game army should make that 7 everywhere with Fair winds, and most should be able to take Nav 1 or 2 with civics and potential shipyards mixed in, for 9 as the mass-producible, available to all cap (with Lanun or circumnavigation obviously pushing higher).

Railroads make a big difference; a morale Commando cavalry or tank (both available in PB18) can potentially raze a city 28 tiles away from where it starts the turn. (Don't forget that units that unload into an allied city or fort can move out immediately) Mobile Artilleries can collateral 22 spaces away, Submarines 12 spaces away (which can collateral from the sea just like your fireball mages or whatever), etc.

That is, of course, silly. Why are you including naval in that? If you do, than in both BTS (morale) and FFH (haste, mobility, and so on) you can hit from infinite tiles away, with just ship chaining. If we compare like to like, we must consider solely land-based, with railroads on the one hand and FFH's pile of land mobility on the other. (As a corollary, submarines can't collateral land units, which is what I was drawing reference to.)

Therefore, let's start under the assumption that morale allows all moves to be repeated (which I'm pretty sure it doesn't), allowing RTR maximum to be 20 tiles into enemy territory. As Tasunke noted, this is an unfair/silly interpretation, as it is a big-time rarity, compared to the mass-produced FFH armies I will be considering against it - if we take this to the logical conclusion, than one should be considering the Sidar (SS) or Hippus (Warcry/Horselord), Balseraphs (Puppets) or something equally so. I'll elect for a compromise of assuming Raider (which almost all civs can access), but only non-unique abilities/units.

HA are 3 move base, 6 moves with Mob I/II and Haste, for 18 moves into enemy territory, or almost the same. They're not the best unit however - that honor goes to the mage summoning a spectre. Mages are 3 moves with mobility/haste, and Spectres are 4 moves with SE 1/2 and 2 base, for 7 real and 21 adjusted moves. If you chuck in sea-to-land combined arms, than that goes up to 34-40 moves, ignoring galleon-chaining, for comparison purposes.

I'll admit that I forgot about how abusable the Haste spell can be, which is particularly broken for the two main reasons you mention (but then everything in FFH2 is broken). Many players already consider galleon-chaining as borderline cheating, but to allow units to attack on the same turn that they're loaded? That's just plain stupid. If it seems like I'm reacting strongly to your mod, Tasunke, it is because it seems to have an unspoken goal of "lets make RtR more like FFH2," which is anathema to me.

I'd be surprised if galleon-chaining is broadly viewed as exploitative, let alone cheating.

But anyway, I'll stop responding, as I think you just miscommunicated what you were trying to say and, for what it's worth, I agree with you vis a vis the direction of this mode.

At most, perhaps, a Commando unit could move 5 tiles on its own land, and then 10 tiles on an enemy Railroad.

This really isn't how it works, Tasunke.

[Tasunke]

So um ... how does one exactly "Galleon Chain"?

At most, perhaps, a Commando unit could move 5 tiles on its own land, and then 10 tiles on an enemy Railroad.

This really isn't how it works, Tasunke.

Ah, duly noted. (Still, I'm not quite sure how RR's work, bc while roads are a direct 1/2 or 1/3 movement cost ... RRs are a pure 10 moves regardless of unit speed. What am I missing?

[RefSteel]

Q is right: The way railroads work is that each move along a rail line reduces your unit's remaining movement by 10% of its max total movement. This means if a 2-mover takes 5 tiles of roads to a railroad, it only has enough movement left to go two tiles along the rails.

Thus, the furthest any unit can move on land in BtS is 15 tiles, but it only works for a one-move unit with a GG and a promotion open: Ten railroad tiles, promote Morale once the unit is fully exhausted, and then use the remaining half of the unit's new movement potential to travel 5 more tiles. A cav or tank would only be able to move 14 tiles since it would only have 1/3 of its new 3-move potential left after moving and taking the promotion. (In Tasunke's mod as currently proposed, a GG Infantry with lots of XP could potentially travel 19 tiles via rail post-radio: Move 10, promote up to Coord, move 5, promote Morale, move 4 - but that's the upper limit. Musketeers trying the same trick could only move 17 tiles.)

Talking more directly about Tasunke's proposed mod again: With bombers at Flight/Radio already, Coord at Radio with its promo requirements shouldn't be game-breaking (it's Brandenburg Gate at MilSci that worries me) except for one thing: A city that would be a Commando pump in BtS would be able to pump units that can, at need, choose whether to promote to Commando or to Coordination, with the latter usable opportunistically (once per unit) the same way Haste (or Mobility promotions) are used in FFH2 (e.g. to strike two tiles in straight from the sea). Morale can already do this in BtS of course, but only with a GG.

[RefSteel]

So um ... how does one exactly "Galleon Chain"?

Land units board a Galleon. The Galleon uses its full movement to reach a tile where another Galleon is waiting. The Land units then board the new Galleon in mid-ocean. The new Galleon uses its full movement to travel still further. Repeat as needed, so long as you have enough Galleons set up in the right places.

(Edit: Obviously also works with Transports or even Galleys, etc.)

[Tasunke]

Right ... but how does one ... do this? I mean, how do u load from one Galleon to another? (I guess I'll test it in-game)

[Tasunke]

Anyways, no one has addressed the key changes I made in response to the mostly Constructive Criticism of forum goers ....

such as, changing Brandenburg gate, adding Riesengarde, re-changing vikings (no more free amphibious ...) and not to forget the Heroic Epic change.

I would much prefer a discussion on those topics ...

[GermanJoey]

That is, of course, silly. Why are you including naval in that? If you do, than in both BTS (morale) and FFH (haste, mobility, and so on) you can hit from infinite tiles away, with just ship chaining. If we compare like to like, we must consider solely land-based, with railroads on the one hand and FFH's pile of land mobility on the other. (As a corollary, submarines can't collateral land units, which is what I was drawing reference to.)

Why wouldn't I? Late-game warfare in BTS is totally naval-dominated because the high-movement of ships is the only thing that can keep up with the huge range of a defenders' collateral options (planes, missiles, artilleries on railroads, etc). An exposed land-stack in an enemy's territory is straight-up dead unless you're completely sure that a.) you've caught an opponent completely-off guard or b.) you have truly overwhelming numbers to your advantage.

It sounds like late-game FFH is for-sure even more ridiculous than late-game BTS, at least mobility-wise. I have no idea how its even possible to deal with movement like that... its mind-boggling. I guess some sort of MAD doctrine comes into effect. My apologies for being presumptuous; I guess I don't have a lot of FFH late-game experience in MP, because I hadn't seen anything that crazy before, even with Raiders opponents in the game.

I'd be surprised if galleon-chaining is broadly viewed as exploitative, let alone cheating.

Well, I've had people complain about it at me before when I've done it in games (although here at RB its broadly accepted), and I know people at CFC have banned it in their official SGOTM games, at least at some point. FWIW I think it shouldn't be considered cheating and that it actually adds a lot to the game because it makes control over the water so much more valuable. It probably *should* be at the very least be considered a bug though... I can't imagine that it was intended that pseudo-airlifting should be available at the start of the astro-era.

[GermanJoey]

Right ... but how does one ... do this? I mean, how do u load from one Galleon to another? (I guess I'll test it in-game)

You select the units and then click "load," and then select the fresh galleon. It works because units don't check to make sure they're in a port when they're loading into a boat, and because units don't need movement points to load into a boat. So, as long as you have enough galleons/transports/whatever, you can space out long chains of ships to "warp" units long distances far earlier than you can with Airports. On top of that, galleons let you teleport three units per turn while Airports only let you ship one. This doesn't necessarily need to be between continents or whatever either; for example, you can zip right along the coast to get troops to the front-lines in a land war. A Knight can move 12 tiles in 2 turns on internal roads, but, with the help of 6 galleons, it could move 24 tiles - twice the distance.

What keeps this from being truly abusable is that units lose all their movement when they load into a boat. That means there's at least one turn of delay before the unit can actually do stuff once it reaches its destination. (although, as Q mentions, this isn't the case in FFH2) It's also fairly expensive to setup these because each ship can only chain up to half of its total movement. For example, a Galleon can chain by 2 units - you move forward two units, give the units to the next ship, and then move back to your original spot. If you want to cover 12 tiles, that's 6 galleons and 540 hammers - about the cost of a World Wonder.