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Qgqqqqq · July 26th, 2015, 03:29

Quote:Why wouldn't I? Late-game warfare in BTS is totally naval-dominated because the high-movement of ships is the only thing that can keep up with the huge range of a defenders' collateral options (planes, missiles, artilleries on railroads, etc). An exposed land-stack in an enemy's territory is straight-up dead unless you're completely sure that a.) you've caught an opponent completely-off guard or b.) you have truly overwhelming numbers to your advantage.

Because of what I said about infinite movement, and because there are many situations where that is impossible - FFH maps, especially, are profoundly land-dominated, but one also couldn't strike so far into many BTS areas because of land being in the way. And because we were talking about railroads, which are obviously land-only, so comparing like to like.

Quote:It sounds like late-game FFH is for-sure even more ridiculous than late-game BTS, at least mobility-wise. I have no idea how its even possible to deal with movement like that... its mind-boggling. I guess some sort of MAD doctrine comes into effect. My apologies for being presumptuous; I guess I don't have a lot of FFH late-game experience in MP, because I hadn't seen anything that crazy before, even with Raiders opponents in the game.

Heh, no worries. One in ten MP FFH games would last to what one might, at a stretch, consider late-game. We've never really had a chance for it to be tested out - but you've got to remember that that is assuming silly levels of road placement, in reality no-one is stupid enough to allow exposed roads in border culture, which mitigates it to ~10t of projection, and both sides can do that. Check out the EitB pitboss endgame for some interesting tactical insights - though, of course, even that didn't really leave the late-middle game, IMO.

Tasunke

Generally speaking, a non-commando 2-move or 3-move army is much more cost efficient than a Raider 6 move army .... and therefore the latter is much more rarely seen (although there was one Sidar game using Divided souls that was rather spectacular)

In general you aren't going to see many 1-move armies in FFH2 ... at least not in the mid/late game. But you also aren't going to find many armies in the 4+ movement range either.

----> All hippus mounted units have a 'base' movement of 4. This is one of the few exceptions to this rule. And the Hippus *do* have a Raiders leader ... but most such Hippus victories are in the form of early game rushes, which is, for them, a lot less riskier than waiting for a massive mid-game assault.

A counter example of this is Ellimist's Raiders Moroi strike (Calabim) against the Balseraphs. In it, he uses haste, plus on-site promotions to Mobility1, plus the free commando from the raiders trait, to RAZE half an empire's cities in the first several turns of the war .... without even bothering to kill the enemy's primary stack.

Tasunke · July 26th, 2015, 04:07

Anyways ..... look at the new changelog!!!

Coordinated (as currently presented) is temporarily removed from planned additions.

Brandenburg gate no longer gives Morale promotion.

Riesengarde gets free 'morale' (but I think I should give them free 'coordinated' instead .... and give coordinated to MechInf like I had planned. After all .... 3-move mech inf is NOT the ideal)

Qgqqqqq · July 26th, 2015, 15:36

(July 26th, 2015, 03:56)Tasunke Wrote: Generally speaking, a non-commando 2-move or 3-move army is much more cost efficient than a Raider 6 move army .... and therefore the latter is much more rarely seen (although there was one Sidar game using Divided souls that was rather spectacular)

In general you aren't going to see many 1-move armies in FFH2 ... at least not in the mid/late game. But you also aren't going to find many armies in the 4+ movement range either.

I'd dispute this, and point to FFH16 (Lanun) as a counter-example. There are advantages and disadvantages to all of the tier 3 armies, but they are by-and-large balanced against one another. One's choice of army comes down to a lot of factors, influenced by geography, historical build-up, civilization tendencies, and so on. Cost isn't even a factor, there, let alone a primary one - it's already taken account of in the trade offs between units, and the factors lie in whether those trade offs are worthwhile for ones situation. So wherein a game like EitB39 there's no way I'd go chariot/HA (largely because of the naval-dominated map), those factors disappear in, say, FFH5.

Tasunke · July 26th, 2015, 16:06

Eh? 1-base move living army has a 3-move max, while a 1-base move non-living army (or w/ catapults) has a 2-move max.

Perhaps I was unclear, but I meant that, in a vacuum, the fastest armies aren't always used, for a variety of reasons, and I gave cost-effectiveness as one possible example.

Qgqqqqq · July 26th, 2015, 16:43

Okay, yeah I didn't get that. I agree, really.

Tasunke

New Stuff.

Harbor +1 C (local Water tiles) +50% trade yield

Carthaginian Cothon: Lighthouse UU -> +2 trade routes, +50% trade yield, +1 food (local water tiles)

Portuguese Feitoria: Harbor UU -> +1 C (local water tiles), +50% trade yield, +50% defense, +3 Naval XP

Galleon: 4 Cargo, Transport: 6 Cargo
East Indiaman: 5 Cargo

Carrack: 3 str, 4 move, 3 cargo. 60 hammers. Can upgrade into Galleon, Frigate, or Attack Submarine.

Viking Longship (Tririme UU): 3 str, 2 move, 2 cargo. Upgrades into Galleon or Frigate.

Viking Berserker (Mace UU) 8 str, +50% vs melee, +40% city attack

Spanish Citadel, doesn't Obsolete, +2 Siege XP, +25% Naval Unit production

New tech 'Muskets' tech (2100 beakers), req Gunpowder, required for Rifling -> allows Musketman 10 str +20% vs Gunpowder, 85 hammers. (rifleman unit art)
** this is 'musket infantry' of Revolutionary War/ Napoleonic Wars/ etc

Rifleman (14 str, 110 hammers) is the soldier of the American Civil War, with mass produced Rifles (was probably a mix of Rifles and Muskets used in the war, but in 1851 the Minie Ball was invented, allowing for mass production of Rifles for rank and file use, and towards the end of the war the Union even had repeating rifles, a precursor to 'Infantry') -> Infantry, Springfield 1900s Semi-Automatic Rifles (same rifle different name in other nations) .... even used en-mass during WW II.

New unit Arquebus @ Gunpowder 8 str, gunpowder unit, 70 hammers (musketman art)

--> Arquebus -> Musketman ->Rifleman is a much more simplified version of my true mod, but its a much more balanced rendition.

Catapult upgrades to Cannon, Trebuchet upgrades to Bombard. Bombard 6 +50% city attack (and defense) @ Gunpowder. Cannon 10 str @ Chemistry. "Cannon" @ Steel renamed to 'Artillery' 12 str. Artillery renamed to 'Howitzer' 18 str +50% vs Siege units. Both Cannon and Bombard upgrade to Artillery, Artillery upgrades to Howitzer.

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