Zitro 'Balspeed' / 'one' / 'mod of mod' Removed

[occasionalplayer]

I would like to congratulate zitro1987 on his great effort. The goal (rebalancing) has been accomplished in large measure. It's a totally new gameplay, and you can no longer entirely on the strategies that consistently worked in the original game.

The following remarks about strategy/effects:

- Summoned units control unrest. I don't know whether this is intentional or not but obviously, unrest control can be achieved rather easily (engineers or magic spirits) and thus, the value of Halflings is further diminished.
- 11 books strategies of course still work, but there does not seem to be a way to avoid this (play them, but just don't pick the super unit!). However, wraiths do not quite work as well as previously (IMO that's the way it ought to be!); instead, shadow demons are comparatively cheap and rather unstoppable (since healing is so much more of an issue).
- Nature seems to be the strongest realm to rely on summoned creatures. 11 books pick gorgons (or even a basilisk, though that one sometimes fails against larger numbers of halberdiers/bowmen) and Earth Lore has become stronger than before since Guardian Spirits have been reduced in worth.
- Chaos or Sorcery do not really work as well for 11 book strategies; I do not see any way of making life work since Torin is vulnerable and you simply can't afford him at the start.

Other good strategies:
- Dwarves, Alchemist, Arti/Runemaster, Famous, Charismatic: Thanks to cheap miners guild, you will be extremely rich very soon and buy mercenaries. Slow speed isn't really an issue thanks to cheap engineers and magic roads.
You can complement the dwarf strategy as follows: three death books (or two plus conjurer): gives you skeletons and maybe darkness. Skeletons with large shield and first strike and darkness wipe out most neutral cities. Alternatively ghouls, but those are more expensive and suffer from being shot. Maybe ghouls, rampaging raiders, monsters gone wild - eat the attackers and expand your army without even moving out.
Life: Guardian Spirits are cheap (maybe with endurance and/or true light), but do not seem to make use of magic roads and are worse than skeletons in battle (but faster overland with endurance). Still, with +5 to hit not bad.
Nature: earth lore as mentioned, wall of stone fortifies your weak cities, sprites maybe (though these are expensive!).

Alternatives:
- Draconian bowmen are virtually unstoppable in the early game, so the above strategy works even faster with them (you are not quite as rich, but get ready to roll). You can even drop famous and charismatic and pick archmage and another book instead (faster bootstrapping)
- Trolls do not work quite as well in the beginning. However, nine war trolls is a nice prospect for a stack of doom. So are nine golems, but those often fail against well fortified enemies. They survive magic and ranged attacks of course but get beaten up up close.
- Havent tried beastmen yet.

How about arcanus:
- High Elves, node mastery and sorcery mastery. Hope for a nearby sorcery node (magic 2,5) with phantom beasts. conquer it by using spearmen (attrition), then get 120 or so power.
- Lizardmen are much better than previously. Dragon Turtles higly suitable for stack of doom
- 11 nature, orcs, pick change terrain and transmute and expand. Of course you run into trouble on a huge continent and higher difficulties.

Moreover: Multi-Figure-Units often seem to fail miserably. Halfling slingers are simply underwhelming, even on champion. Experience is no longer worth as much (because you don't get much to hit), and therefore warlord does not quite justify the cost of two picks. That's why I am hesitant to play Beastmen.

On the whole, you have eliminated most blitz possibilities (Hell Hound blitz, sprites blitz, ultra elite spearmen blitz etc) because of higher cost and stronger enemies (if they have halberdiers and bowmen, you really need a considerable force). The strategies I described are partly based on exploiting artificer/runemaster (which you could of course also rule out).

City management is much better than in original version.

Just another question: would you be willing to upload the latest version of your mod "one" even though you have discontinued your work on thad mod? I would still like to try it out again.
Cheers
occasionalplayer

[zitro1987]

Thanks, it's meant to give the game several twists mostly for my enjoyment. I'm surprised you liked city management - it's a bit buggy (visually) and very different conceptually.

- Summoned units control unrest. I don't know whether this is intentional or not but obviously, unrest control can be achieved rather easily (engineers or magic spirits) and thus, the value of Halflings is further diminished.

The change you pointed out was one I was rather nervous of making - it is intentional and can help both the player and the AI:
_magic spirits and skeletons are arguably the easiest ways of reducing unrest. You need two and with the high unit costs of mod, it can add up: 60mana/4upk for magic spirit or 210mana/2upk for skeletons just to reduce 1 unrest.
_The original 'spearmen' way of reducing unrest was way less expensive at low (10-20) production cost and 1 food upkeep. Now with higher production cost and gold upkeep per unit, it's a significant expense, just like with the cheaper summoning units. Food is even more viable, as exceed food translates to 1 gold (instead of 0.5)
_Unrest is less detrimental in this mod as cities have 0 to 1 percent-based gold buildings and 0 percent-based production buildings.

- 11 books strategies of course still work, but there does not seem to be a way to avoid this (play them, but just don't pick the super unit!). However, wraiths do not quite work as well as previously (IMO that's the way it ought to be!); instead, shadow demons are comparatively cheap and rather unstoppable (since healing is so much more of an issue).

_I struggle a bit with the balancing issues of 'starting uncommons' (and 'starting rares') without making such units nonviable otherwise. I didn't think of 'shadow demons' as an overpowered early threat (at least compared with 'giant spiders', 'werewolves'). I can test an 'shadow demon'/summoner 10 book start.

_Nature seems to be the strongest realm to rely on summoned creatures. 11 books pick gorgons (or even a basilisk, though that one sometimes fails against larger numbers of halberdiers/bowmen) and Earth Lore has become stronger than before since Guardian Spirits have been reduced in worth.

Nature and Death have the summoner advantage in my mod. I don't always look at 11 book picks for balancing realms (the 11 book rare starting spell was something Kyrub likes). I agree that Gorgon (petrify) and Stone Giant (very high armor) are possibly the best 11-book starting spells in the game, both nature.

- Chaos or Sorcery do not really work as well for 11 book strategies; I do not see any way of making life work since Torin is vulnerable and you simply can't afford him at the start.

I agree, though 11-book picks are not useless: Life: Angel is a pretty good fighter now. Sorcery: Storm Giant is a pretty good starting unit. Air Elemental/Warp Lightning if you can get a lot of 'skill'. Torin is actually very strong at 0xp, but very expensive.

- Dwarves, Alchemist, Arti/Runemaster, Famous, Charismatic: Thanks to cheap miners guild, you will be extremely rich very soon and buy mercenaries. Slow speed isn't really an issue thanks to cheap engineers and magic roads.

On the other hand, Dwarves no longer have production bonus and gold is somewhat more scarce (alchemist is less useful). Nevertheless, I'm considering a cost increase to non-hero mercenaries. I also seem to find 'myrran' games a bit easier, so there might be overall 'myrran' unbalances with a 2-book cost plus '1 wizard in myrran' changes.

Life: Guardian Spirits are cheap (maybe with endurance and/or true light), but do not seem to make use of magic roads and are worse than skeletons in battle (but faster overland with endurance). Still, with +5 to hit not bad.

Guardian Spirits have a high upkeep for their rather weak combat ability. My intended special purpose of guardian spirits (besides stronger meld) was rush-summoning to protect your city or sacrifice them against a neutral town or weak node. I agree, they're not bad but there are a few better summoning units (examples: war bears, ghouls, sprites)
_I also think using the limited starting mana enchanting swordsmen with endurance/holy armor/holy weapon can be equally or more useful.

Nature: earth lore as mentioned, wall of stone fortifies your weak cities, sprites maybe (though these are expensive!).

Three of nature's best 'common' spells. Yes, sprites are expensive, but they're loaded with good abilities.

- Draconian bowmen are virtually unstoppable in the early game, so the above strategy works even faster with them (you are not quite as rich, but get ready to roll). You can even drop famous and charismatic and pick archmage and another book instead (faster bootstrapping)

I never tried this strategy. Unstoppable even with lower number of shots? I could try this strategy to see if overpowered (as previously mentioned, I'm wondering if all myrran races are slightly overpowered).

- Trolls do not work quite as well in the beginning. However, nine war trolls is a nice prospect for a stack of doom. So are nine golems, but those often fail against well fortified enemies. They survive magic and ranged attacks of course but get beaten up up close.

_Trolls suffer major unrest problems early on, to the point of lowering tax to 1.0 and relying on 'marketplace'. However, the 'cause fear' is surprisingly effective against low-resistance melee units like spearmen, hell hounds, etc. The main draw of the race is 'armorer's guild'. War Trolls are as effective as we remembered them, and War Mammoths are finally useful non-regenerating alternatives.
_Golems are the unit of choice against capital cities - they're immune to lightning Otherwise, they are somewhat inferior to other top-tier units as you mentioned (melee is so low)

High Elves, node mastery and sorcery mastery. Hope for a nearby sorcery node (magic 2,5) with phantom beasts. conquer it by using spearmen (attrition), then get 120 or so power.

That's a very good early strategy.

Lizardmen are much better than previously. Dragon Turtles higly suitable for stack of doom

I originally considered lizardmen to be among the better arcanus races (+1hp and armor in vanilla is outstanding). Now, they can build more structures, but the hp bonus is less influential and the armor bonus is lost.

- 11 nature, orcs, pick change terrain and transmute and expand. Of course you run into trouble on a huge continent and higher difficulties.

This strategy also works with barbarians.

Moreover: Multi-Figure-Units often seem to fail miserably. Halfling slingers are simply underwhelming, even on champion. Experience is no longer worth as much (because you don't get much to hit), and therefore warlord does not quite justify the cost of two picks. That's why I am hesitant to play Beastmen

.
_Experience is more oriented towards armor and a strong 'ultra-elite' set of bonuses. Warlord is still useful in my opinion.
_Halflings have weak military, including slingers (they're pretty good with eldrich weapon). I've won a tough game with them, the trick is conquering cities of other races and building armies from there.
_Beastmen are great. They have 1 more figure yet no to hit penalties (unlike halflings).

On the whole, you have eliminated most blitz possibilities (Hell Hound blitz, sprites blitz, ultra elite spearmen blitz etc)

Sort of, but it's still quite possible to 'blitz' early in the game successfully, sometimes more so than before (stronger summons, some powerful normal early units)

Just another question: would you be willing to upload the latest version of your mod "one" even though you have discontinued your work on thad mod? I would still like to try it out again.

It's actually extremely outdated and bugged in extreme form. It would probably be easier to start from this mod and use the 'tweaker' mod to balance things around 1-figure mechanics.

Work in progress: currently adding to post

[occasionalplayer]

Thank you for your quick response.

Shadow demons are of course not individually overpowered, but once you get four or so of them, they are quite strong.
The same goes for Draconian bowmen; however, shooting at point blank range with strength six even enables one or two bowmen to conquer neutral cities in several turns (if those don't have shooters, that is).

How about giving spearmen the "attack flyers"-ability again?

You are right about 11 life and angel; angels are versatile and fast and get the job done. Storm Giants, however, are bad melee fighters, and their shots are not so effective against multi figure units.

[zitro1987]

As mentioned a couple of days ago, I considered making a few changes:

*Spearmen can now hit flyers.
*Myrran races a bit weaker - only slightly superior to Arcanus races. The main benefit of Myrran (2 books, not 3) is the guaranteed 1 wizard modification, adamantium, and all other known myrror benefits.

I don't quite now how to adjust mercenary costs. I plan a (100% + 50% * level) cost, with 50% in place of 33%.

[occasionalplayer]

Some more feedback:

How about (instead of weakening myrran races) adding another wizard to Myrror? Myrran is already strengthened (cost reduction 3-2)?

Myrran military:
Draconian adamantium bowmen are probably the most cost-effective unit for early conquests. A stack of nine can conquer many lairs and even some nodes on myrror, especially nature nodes (if there are only wyrm for example). The only race where it doesn't really work are dark elves, but there you can strengthen your bowmen with resist elements.

Dark Elf military is fun to play with. You will need to consider mixed stacks (one or two nigthblades to wipe out swordsmen/spearmen/bowmen/Hell Hounds etc, stronger even with web so you can kill flyers, and then priests or warlocks or nightmares), whereas for the other races I end up using uniform stacks.

I would still suggest lowering the cost of warlord from 2 - 1. It is of course still useful, but not so much so that it would warrant two picks (increased cost for military; lower figures in general). Maybe I'm mistaken about that, its just a feeling.

[zitro1987]

Myrran: the problem that I have with allowing an additional wizard in myrror is how it only works against the player, not the opponent myrran wizard
*if you play on Arcanus, there is always one myrran wizard, enjoying additional time before being challenged.
*if you play on Myrran, there are two myrran wizards, sometimes clashing as early as two wizards in Arcanus.
The solitude is definitively worth a book by itself, the combination of a [now slightly] stronger race, +5 power, and better resources and node bonuses are worth the second book.

Do you generally believe tier-2 [armory] ground bowmen are stronger than they should be? I don't recall dealing high damage unless enchanted. I still have not tested starting draconian with bowmen strategy but a quick test with 2 seem less useful than 2 swordsmen due to lower number of shots. I image, like most ranged units, they excel in numbers.

Warlord: I'm starting to consider the idea of 1 book, though I'm not sure how to mod this change and whether it will become the best 1-book retort. Instead, I enhanced the benefits of 'ultra-elite' and modified the benefits of 'champion'
*Ultra-Elite now provides nothing but a simple +1 to hit and +1 to defend set (instead of +1 to hit, +2 armor), an arguably better experience bonus for any units with starting 4 armor or more.
*Champion now provides +1 attack/range, +2 resistance, +1 hp - somewhat weaker bonuses

[Anthony]

The problem with draconian bowmen is mostly that flying ranged attackers are problematic; under vanilla, there are lots of targets easily captured with sprites. Other than giving a whole bunch of units ranged attacks, it's not clear what can be done about that.

[occasionalplayer]

How about giving halberdiers the "attack flyers" ability? That would discourage early bomwen conquests. Spearmen aren't really a deterrent; you fly in, kill the spearmen, bowmen etc (maybe at some cost, but they ususually don't have many bowmen and the spearmen drop rather easily) and then take another turn for the halberdiers. Maybe increase their cost as compensation.

[zitro1987]

Ranged flying units can be an issue and I'm having a hard time finding the right balance between keeping the spirit of master of magic while limiting exploits.
*Spearmen and Pikemen can attack flyers (not unrealistic, they have long weapons that can technically be thrown)
*ranged flying units tend to have 6 shots or less
*Eliminating some exploits (warships with 99 rocks)
*mage heroes (which could get a flying perk by magic or item) cannot cast too many ranged attacks
*Range penalties not as brutal as original

I have a bit of an issue with halberdiers reaching flyers with a 'thrown' ability. It does not make a lot of logical sense, even if the weapon is shown as a bit long (kind of like the 'swimming settler' issue of 2.0 mod), because it would imply a humanoid soldier can reach a flyer with a long weapon, but a fire giant can't.

Sadly, the only way I can think of a balance that could also make logical sense would require major modding and change a game-mechanic, thus losing some of the original style: flying units being reached by 'ALL' melee units, but with a 1/4 to 1/3 damage reduction when defending.

[Anthony]

Well, some other possibilities:

*Wait 50 turns results in the attacker fleeing. This isn't any more exploitable than the existing behavior, I think the AI already does this.
*After N turns (say, 20), fliers are grounded.