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This is gonna be good: von Adlercreutz and Taotao

(October 8th, 2015, 02:34)taotao Wrote:
(October 7th, 2015, 13:17)reddog Wrote: I stopped a worker which was building a cottage on grass without a river.
This might be an area where I don't quite have the right priorities? In a vacuum I do work riverside cottages over "dry" ones, but sometimes I might treat them to much alike?
I don't, however, want to stop the cottage the worker is doing now. Oravainen will grow very soon and we won't have time to improve any other tile in time for that. I´m also thinking of cottaging the tile 1S now. Reason being, that both these tiles can be shared between Pyhäjoki and Oravainen and it's one of a limited number of really useful actions that the worker can do while moving south towards Pyhäjokis pigs (which is the citys clearly best tile).

Heh, I said this just a short while ago. Still, when I played t50 I actually looked at the worker you had stopped, and looked at the worker 2E who had just finished the first cottage, and decided to have them both cottage another riverside grass. crazyeye
It won't matter much for Pyhäjoki which will still get its pigs improved in the same timeframe, but it'll be slightly worse for Lapua/Jutas (marble city) whereto the other worker had been going. Hopefully it'll all work out though.

Speaking of marble city though, I had a total brain freeze yesterday. Of course putting 1t into an axe will delay the city by 1t. How could it not? bang I mean, I'm not finishing the axe or growing a size so clearly it'll have an impact.
I actually came to my senses yesterday evening and logged in, in a hurry. Only to find that the turn had rolled like 5 minutes earlier. Boy was I angry at myself! Anyway, since I've got a worker set to start chopping in front of the city the turn it's founded and two military units arriving at he same time, plus I really like to lock down this region I think it might be worth it to whip the settler in Lapua. It won't be pretty, whipping off an improved copper mine, but I believe it is what needs to be done.
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Quote:Could be fierce competition, so I believe that if we want the wonder we probably need to go here even before currency, delaying economic growth.
We don't want sailing. Well, we do, but not right now. We don't see a single island (!) so galleys won't help with off shore settlements. Trade will of course eventually be good, but as we don't know anyone from another continent ICTR will still wait for a while
...

We need sailing even there we see no islands,becasue will take some time to establish a road conection between civilization but far moe easy on water.Without sailing, curency is worth near nothing as we dont plan on building wealth becasue we have a slow leader so we need to investe elsewere.And if we prepare as we should we should have the plantaion on silk next turn after calendar wich will gave more than curency for a while.

About the risk of loosing it, well if you dont try anithing and just go the safe rute never will be topcontender or have chanses to win a game.

About city 5(I hope i am not too pushy or i upset you) i think the location is not very good: No food for 12 turns is very bad.Why dont setle on the jungle 1W of warriour or on the plainhill E of the worker which has the advantage you can work the cooper till you improve weath.I know 3 food city sounds good but is very slow .I f you go on the jungle you have beter foods but city a litle slower.

if you want you can add me on gmail rbmackoti.
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I jus checked and with overflow from axe we can get a2 turn library in capitol in 2 turns will ahve another cotage worked so there will have at least 16 beakers turn so we will get 20 with library, a very good deal i might say.I am in game if you agree the move let me know.
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(October 8th, 2015, 07:10)reddog Wrote: About city 5(I hope i am not too pushy or i upset you) i think the location is not very good: No food for 12 turns is very bad.Why dont setle on the jungle 1W of warriour or on the plainhill E of the worker which has the advantage you can work the cooper till you improve weath.I know 3 food city sounds good but is very slow .I f you go on the jungle you have beter foods but city a litle slower.

Don't worry, I'm not easily upset tongue
but I might disagree wink

As for no food for 12t I was actually thinking 9t, but I guess the point still stands.
(On turn city is founded on marble you move worker 1S of city. Next turn start chopping. Work hill forest for 3t while building library. Chop comes in t4 and finishes library. Worker could road for 2t while waiting for borders to expand. T6 borders have popped and worker starts pasturing sheep. T9 pasture finishes and city can use it.
In pictures:





Worth mentioning is that this is without sending more than the initial worker this way...

I don't like the idea of settling on jungle. It's good that we get rid of a jungle without worker turns, but it's not very defensible. On flatland and the wrong side of the river means he can easily attack it. He even has a hill to put catapults on if ever we get to such a situation. Also, it doesn't do the job of locking down the region. One of us will put a city 1E of wheat and while it's not an amazing site, I don't want to be in yet another race or open us up to intrusions from there. (He could still settle there if we build on marble, but the site will lose most of its shine if we're already having strong cultural control on wheat).

The plains hill is another matter and a viable alternative. It's defensible, being on a hill and less aggressive than marble. It's not very strong though. Dry wheat is only 4f and its only source of food. We're also giving up on sheep entirely as DZ is certain to settle for it first ring. Add to that, our coastal city is also left much more open to attack and needs a heavy garrison. Overall this feels like a decent option if we're second to the area and need to make lemonade, but it's not a city that will bring us much closer to winning the game. If this is all we can get, we would've been much better off going straight east from Revolahti for our 5th city and founded something among the wealth of resources there.

Quote:We need sailing even there we see no islands,because will take some time to establish a road connection between civilization but far more easy on water.Without sailing, currency is worth near nothing as we dont plan on building wealth because we have a slow leader so we need to invest elsewere.And if we prepare as we should we should have the plantation on silk next turn after calendar which will gave more than currency for a while.
First a minor issue; how do you reckon we'll have more value from an improved silk (2f4c and city needs to work the tile instead of something else) than 1 extra trade route in at least 6 cities?noidea
Second, yes, we'll want sailing, but it won't do us any good until alphabet anyhow and even then we might be heavily restricted by lack of scouting, locked borders etc.
I'm not claiming that a MoM-beeline is bad. I'm not even necessarily saying that we shouldn't go there. I'm just saying that the opportunity costs here might be higher than normal while the side benefits are smaller. As you said, we have a slow(ish) leader and civ, perhaps this is not the time to stunt our other progress? rolleye

Quote:if you want you can add me on gmail rbmackoti.
Heh, thanks for confirming who you are wink
(and yes Joey, I've been around these forums for long enough to get a thrill when I saw that "reddog" had written in my thread dancing )
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(October 7th, 2015, 17:19)GermanJoey Wrote: Its totally fine with me (TBS, Brick, and I are the three co-admins for this game) for you to play on any account you want. I think its probably too late, and that everyone already knows who you are.

Yeah, I'll agree with this, as long as you don't mind that I'm not going to hide who you are if anyone asks directly, though it seems like a lot of people already know. carry on. cool
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All right everyone, it’s t50 and I believe it’s time to take a somewhat better look at our civ, our neighbours and the world at large.




This is it, dear folks, our glorious civ!
On t50 we’ve got 4 cities and a total of 10 pop.
We also have 4 workers, 1 axe, 3 warriors and a scout.
Techwise we’ve ignored the religious branches and lack masonry,sailing and archery, but instead we’ve gotten writing and are about a third into mathematics.
All in all I’m happy with our opening and look forward to follow how things will develop.

Having done the overview I think it’s time to also look at the cities one by one, starting with the capital:



Oravainen or Oravais is our Capital and founded on t0.
As far as capitals go it is situated lovely on a hill at a river mouth. It’s got a full set of 5 hills, but so far only 1 of them is mined. I guess from the onset one could’ve gone several ways with this location. Having realised that in reality I very rarely move my capital later on (though fantasizing about it a lot), and taking future bureaucracy into account I’m planning on making this a commerce center and eventually fill it with both Oxford and an academy. Oravainen is our first, and so far only city to have gotten any infrastructure, in that it does have a granary and short term plans include growing it to size 6 where it once again will have to help out in the production of settlers and workers. If I am to say anything negative about Oravainen, it is that it only have two food sources, one of which is a cow, so growth is going to come comparatively slow here.



Lapua or Lappo is our majestic second city and had its first houses erected on t29.
The city may pick up a cottage from the capital from time to time, but the real power of this beast can be seen in the three tiles it’s currently working: pigs, wet wheat and a copper hill makes it a strong producer of early workers and settlers and once it has grown into a few more mines, production will go up even further. Current plans dictate that this will be the location of our Heroic Epic (and later on West Point). The downside of such a choice would be not getting access to highly promoted ships from the get go, but I guess we’ll have try and make up for that simply by building more ships in other locations for that other kind of quality… hammer
While Oravainen in theory could build us some nice, larger wonder (eg. mids/mom) I don’t see that as particularly likely in this set up*. An idea I’ve been toying more with though, is going aesthetics after currency and giving SoZ a shot in this city if it’s still available.



Revolahti or Revolaks is the gem of a settlement that was sneaked out at t42.
Filler is a horrid word for a beautiful city like this, but there you go. Revolahti will probably become a fairly nice commerce city one day, but the real reason it was founded was for the early boost to science production. Now, at size 2, it’s already producing 1/3 of my beaker output. Add a library and a a riverside horse pasture and it’s certain to do the same five turns from now…
Considering its lack of good food tiles, this was a site where I wouldn’t have minded a granary from the start. Simming and thinking about it though I figured that I won’t really delay much growth by going library first if I can time some math-enhanced chops into said granary. Current plan is therefore to finish the library one turn after growing, build a (somewhat slow, but much needed) worker at size 3 and then use that to chop out the food storage facility.



Our newest city Pyhäjoki was founded on t49.
The purpose of it is twofold. First off it shares three grassland tiles with the capital. Eventually these will all be cottaged and Pyhäjoki will play a large part in growing them to towns. Secondly I also see this city generating our first or second great person (Jutas producing the other). Though a bit light on food sources this could even become our NE city. Playing the dutch, there is a certain lure however of straying off old habits and use the coastal cities for production…

If we then start with cities that haven’t been built yet we can move to city 5 ”Jutas"

This is the city we’ve been debating lately. Here in the location I prefer.
As I see it, the primary purpose of this city is to serve as a bulwark against the zulu hordes. Being just about our only city with 3 food sources it’s also a prime candidate for the National Epic. One advantage of that path is that it means we don’t need to put any pillage-friendly cottages next to DZ, but instead can add some easier-to-rebuild farms (and workshops). One thing that might be possible is to enlarge the GPP-pool by adding the Great Wall here if nobody has built it come t80-90.

City 6 I believe will move north to start establishing a border with REM.

To be able to get these jungled gems into the BFC of a city we basically have 3 options. On the desert hill 1E of the oasis, on marble or here. As I don’t believe that desert hill will manage to hold on to gold long term that city isn’t that interesting anymore. Marble would work, but initially I actually rank it as slightly weaker than this option. I also rank this as more defensible (especially if putting a front city next to gold). One additional point towards settling this early is that it stops REM from settling a superstrong front city against us 1NE of marble.

City 7 could be pink dotting dear muffin.

The reason why I’m considering a city here is very simple to spell: g-o-l-d.
Currently our happiness situation is great. However, Silk is the only unique happiness resource we have left to improve in our empire. After that we need to trade for (currently jungled) gems or the spare silk. This might work out, but I still see our own gold resource as being worth an awful lot. Chances are high REM will beat us here, but I guess we’ll deal with that if and when the time comes.

As an alternative to rustling our feathers against the muffin man we could expand peacefully eastwards.

This is simply a crazily resource-lad peace of real estate! Two alternatives: I’m leaning towards the ”alt c” marked here, but 1E is also a definite possibility. One thing I don’t want though is to have this important flat land township being a frontline city towards Serdoa. For that reason it’d be good if we could manage a city for instance here:

while 1SE would be even better as that leaves room for a Moai-worthy location 1N of the pigs.

Speaking of Moai, another alternative for that would be here, close to the capital:

Nothing wrong with the location, but not a particularly fast starter and not claiming land, so it keeps on being pushed down the settling order. Will share two cottages with the Cap though so try not to push it back too far… Ideally I’d say that Moai should be on our west coast as it’s here that we have our capital and need a real naval presence.


This is another sweet location I won’t settle in too much of a hurry. The reason of course that it’s slightly vulnerable towards the Zulu. I’m guessing that he’ll see that it’s even more vulnerable (and fairly useless) for him against me and let us settle at our own leisure…

Finally we’ve got a "filler" in the south east.

This city might be better off 1N sharing the pigs. However, if that is DZs only source of horses, a plant such as this might be quite interesting…
If we specifically want to chop out a wonder this might also be our best bet.
Although… if we really want to chop out a wonder (or an army for that matter). Look at the spot 3E I’ve marked with ”iron?". No less than 12! forests in the bfc.


Whew! These things take more effort than I anticipated. Will definitely write some more thoughts, but might take a while...

*I started writing this before the discussion earlier today...
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Quote:First a minor issue; how do you reckon we'll have more value from an improved silk (2f4c and city needs to work the tile instead of something else) than 1 extra trade route in at least 6 cities?noidea
First i considered we will get a librarie in capitol, so from 2/5 you get another beaker ,and you gain 1 more happines so capitol can grow 1 more size so there you already beat the curency stuf and other cities can get 1 pop more 1 whip more,but for this you need to prepare with granaries and other stuff, is not just about 6 comerce.And even more can start slowbuilding MoM and prepare some chops in eventualy you get it.If you fail1,5 gold ratio is not that bad can fuel a tech to reasrch.
I made some math and i think till turn 73 this city with 2 worker helping from start can produce : 1 granary , 1-2 axes , setler and with some abuse even more.
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2/5? Ok, it's riverside. Still, if the alternative is working a 2/2 cottage or possibly 2/3 hamlet if we've prioritised those... Also I'm not sure if adding 1 happy to places like Revolahti will do that much already at this point. And as for the capital, well it gains 1 happy from silk, but loses 2 happy from market (120h is a big investment, but it's an easier to get 40% of MoM).
I'm also not sure where you would fit in using the plantation if we're working max hammers towards MoM?

But I guess you're saying that we shouldn't go all in on MoM? Only beeline the techs and then do a "decent" effort in building it?
Am I reading you correctly?

Anyway, let's assume that I fully support the Sailing-Calendar-Masonry-MoM plan:
Quote:I made some math and i think till turn 73 this city with 2 worker helping from start can produce : 1 granary , 1-2 axes , setler and with some abuse even more.
Is t73 the turn you think we'll have Calendar? Or the turn we'll have Calendar and Masonry? (as I don't want to figure out a plan where we chop our grassland hills on t73 only to see that they don't get the benefit of *1,5 from marble).
As for the plan: which city do you mean? Oravainen? In that case, do you mean library instead of granary? (we already have a granary).

I'll see if I have time to sim this today or tomorrow. Not making any promises though as the trip's approaching and I haven't really prepared at all.
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ok, lets ditch MoM if you think is to risky and not worth is your game in the end i just wanted to show some options and how i would have played.I usualy sacrifice some things to win other.I never was concerned about defensive position of cities, becasue if you are in defence you already lose, not necesary to whom atack you but the others.

I am stil happy to be in team with you , and if you can provide an actualized sandbox i will do some tries myself, and for when you are gone i will falow your microplan.i will just log once in while to see how the civ is developing.
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We are last to play. I started a library in capitol as i think we want to grow , let the worker finish theyr duties and will end turn so no keep others waiting for us.
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