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Zitro 'Balspeed' / 'one' / 'mod of mod' Removed

I've played through 4 games in your mod mostly playing with nomads with nature and I really enjoy the changes, it makes the game far more interesting and balanced. The summons seem much more useful as do the spells. I made a few notes - apologies for the wall of text.

Lairs rewards too boring. Never get any decent items ever or spells early in the game. Early on you can beat 10 zombies and skeletons for just 70 gold. Maybe an early item or something would be nice.
Another one where I had to beat efreet and about 6 hell hounds and it gave me a +1 def +1 attack shield as a reward.
Apart from node capture, beating map features early just seems like a waste of time and resources. I lost 3 elite pikemen, a basilisk and a bowman for 20 gold and 50 mana crystals. You also don't get much fame for beating them which would be something. Do they get the same sort of rewards as beating a node, but without the mana source?

Outposts maybe a little too slow to turn into a town.

Alchemist guild seems a bit cheap for +3 mana and magical weapons. A temple costs more and gives you +2 mana and -1 unrest.

Food upkeep should be higher for higher rated troops - this would help balance summons a bit as you would have a limited number of the best normal units (not sure if this would work with the AI though).

I never build the parthenon as you need an oracle first (also do you need the wizards guild first too?). I'd say removing that requirement would mean they get built occasionally as at the moment it also delays priests essentially making them a tier-5 unit (or 6 if you need the wiards guild too) - plus by then you'll probably have griffins by then anyway.

I'd rename the bank as a harbour or something to show the player that it is coastal cities only.

Wow stone giants are tough as nails. Give them iron skin and a couple of them are very difficult to kill. So much better than basilisks.

Hail storm seems quite underpowered, when would you use it? The 40 mana means you won't be using it much early on and later on the 5 strength attack won't really do anything of value.
Lowering it to 20 might see it get a bit of use or maybe up the strength a bit.

Mana focusing is actually quite useful now (at least as far as I can tell).

Famous - does the +10 fame actually do anything to get more heroes? Looking at the formula on the heroes site it says you need 25 to go from 3% to 4% chance per turn if you have no heroes. It would be good if the jumps weren't quite so big. Getting 25 fame is pretty difficult until late on.

I wonder if the heroes are bugged as I managed to get to 56 fame without any heroes other than the very worst ever being offered even when famous. I've played four games the last of which I kept 4 slots open and didn't get offered anything except two tier-1 heroes all game (despite having high fame).

Famous and charismatic are good early on, but seems to run out of steam later on. Is it possible to increase the rate at which mercenaries are offered to you as the game progresses? One every 10 turns or so at the start is massive, whereas it becomes completely irrelevant later on. Does their quality increase with fame too? I like the idea of running a mercenary army in the mid/late game and concentrate on magic and summoning.

Basilisk a bit underpowered I'd say, one war bear in a nature node almost killed my unit in one turn. By the time you can summon one you normally have better options cheaper - I had mithril griffins being cranked out in 3 turns in my game so why would I spend 350 odd mana on a basilisk?

How come you've nerfed nature/sorcery/chaos mastery? The reduction in spell research and maintenance was great. Now you're dependent on finding a suitable node early on to make these worthwhile which can be especially difficult with tiny map size. Also it is much weaker than node mastery, as it has a third of the node spell bonus (only works on 1 instead of 3 nodes) and the bonus is x4 on one in three nodes rather than x2 in all nodes (so 4/3 = 1.333 on average bonus for each node).

Stone skin is still pretty lame. +2 defence? No maintenance? +1 heart? Reduced cost? I never used this in any of the games I played.

Diplomacy - all the wiards liked me until I got attacked and suddenly they all hated me. Also if you declare war and banish a wizard then that's it everyone attacks you.
I made peace with rjak and it says I'm not at war with him, but he keeps attacking me all the time including in cities.

Early heroes seem a bit unbalanced. Didn't B'Shan used to have noble? Now he just has scouting II and that's it. Gunther only has two armour which seems a little low.
Valana is way more powerful than those two, she can cast spells, has leadership and has attack and defence as good as gunther.
Removing constitution nerfs several heroes. I'd say reduce the HP bonus you gave to all heroes to +2 and add 1 shield but keep the constitution as it was. Early heroes are still slightly underwhelming - gunther lost to a plain nomad spearman for example.

Bugs

The game doesn't tell you when your outpost change into a town anymore. You have to keep clicking on the outpost each turn to check.
Still getting the invincible defenders bug sometimes, quitting the game and reloading seems to fix it (just reloading doesn't as far as I can tell).
Iron ore surveyor text needs a space in it before 10%
Coal reduces unit cost by 14% not 15% (according to the surveyor anyway)
The gold mine on the surveyor says it gives you 5 gold, but in the city screen it only gives you +3. Same problem with quork crystals, but I think this is just a display bug as the gold amount looks right.
Cracks call description needs a space in the spellbook between "has" and "a".
The nagas text in the spellbook is the text that should be for wind mastery.
When you summon a phantom beast in a sorcery node it doesn't get the bonus to attack and defence until the start of the next turn (probably a result of summoning sickness). Makes it a lot harder to defend sorcery nodes.
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(October 22nd, 2015, 05:28)MrBiscuits Wrote: Lairs rewards too boring. Never get any decent items ever or spells early in the game.
that's a general problem. i'd be most interested in how to increase lair rewards in relation to defender size.
dance!
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(October 22nd, 2015, 20:04)letsdance Wrote:
(October 22nd, 2015, 05:28)MrBiscuits Wrote: Lairs rewards too boring. Never get any decent items ever or spells early in the game.
that's a general problem. i'd be most interested in how to increase lair rewards in relation to defender size.

Agreed and it would make a huge difference to the game if it could be changed. I thought I'd mention it in here anyway though since it is a balance mod of sorts.

I've found a nasty bug that makes the game unplayable, some of your spell picks at the start of the game don't actually appear in your spell book. I just started a new game and realised that heroism was missing so I restarted a few times and noticed up to three spells missing that you picked at the start.
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Hi McBiscuits, I never noticed missing spells. Did you download all of the files?

as a note on life: heroism is now battle-only, and holy weapon is overland only (according to others, spell has no effect when cast in battle, a bug?)
firewall is battle-only

I'll respond to other comments later. I made some adjustments to heroes but did not upload any updates yet.

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(October 23rd, 2015, 06:45)zitro1987 Wrote: Hi McBiscuits, I never noticed missing spells. Did you download all of the files?

as a note on life: heroism is now battle-only, and holy weapon is overland only (according to others, spell has no effect when cast in battle, a bug?)
firewall is battle-only

I'll respond to other comments later. I made some adjustments to heroes but did not upload any updates yet.

Hello!

I used zitro130i.rar and extracted it into the root Master of Magic directory, that's all I need to do isn't it? It was the same for Zitro130g when I tried that too. My original Master of Magic was bought from Good Old Games. I tried reinstalling MoM from scratch and then installing your mod on top and had the same result. I tried it with and without installing insecticide first too.

It happens every time with this combination:

Hard Four opponents Tiny 2x node power

Ryak portrait
4 life 2 sorcery 1 chaos 2 life

node mastery, nature mastery

Starting picks:
Just cause, Heroism, Web, Sprites, Hail Storm, War bears, Floating Island, Counter Magic
nomad, blue flag

Normally there are 3 starting spells missing.

I've attached a save game with the above settings and I only have 5 of the chosen spells in my spell book and counter magic is available for research even though I picked it.


Attached Files
.gam   SAVE1.GAM (Size: 120.41 KB / Downloads: 0)
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I noticed and replicated it. That is one massive bug. When I adjusted the number of 'common' spells based on books, the change only took place 'visually'

I also tested an 11 book wizard, which is supposed to have a major penalty on number of 'commons', but they got all 10.

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Hmmm I take it back about nature/sorcery/chaos mastery being underpowered. I just took an earlyish node with a colossus in it and it gives me over 100 mana per turn (I also have node mastery and 2xpower nodes)! I get about 50 mana from my cities and 250 from 3 nodes at the moment.

It seems to be all or nothing really, if you get a suitable node you're completely sorted for mana for the rest of the game. Perhaps it was more balanced the way it was before.

By the way is blur as good as it seems? ie. Reduces all damage to all your units by 20%? Or have I got the wrong idea.
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Thanks for giving it a few plays and giving feedback. I admit my hex editor modding skills are very basic and don't stand a chance against say, 'Caster of Magic'

Books and starting common spells : sadly reverted back to unbalanced original to reverse severe error.

Outposts? I actually boosted their growth compared to original. I believe settlers are generally well worth the effort.

Alchemist Guild being cheap - magic weapons don't have the +1 to hit bonus, only the benefits of hitting weapon-immune and if you have the luck of having mithril/adamantium.

Food Upkeep - I would love to, but I honestly don't know how.

Nomads: only race that can build parthenon (an originally removed building) - it coming late tones down the advantage of a new building. Priests are normally weaker than nomad's version, which is why they come so late in the building tree.

Bank: another race-only building - does not require coastal cities.

Stone Giant (and Gorgons) with iron skin - a needed help to 'nature' realm against the great late military advantages from other realms.

Hail Storm at 5 damage per figure is only slightly weaker than original 'ice storm' at 100+ cost? I may lower the cost to 30-35. It's an early spell designed to weaken those neutral town's multi-figure spearmen/bowmen/swordsmen.

Mercenaries and Heroes and Famous - Heroes rarely come on their own but are generally better with the initial high to hit, hit points, and +1armor/level. I have made some adjustments to a bunch of heroes, particularly gunther and shalla, but I have not brought back the standard constitution due to the standard experience +1armor/level perk. Famous 'triples' the chance of getting heroes, eliminates 10 military gold upkeep, while making it really easy to get mercenaries early on. It's worth 2 books as an early advantage makes you stronger later in the game.

Gave basilisk another hp. I'm nervous about giving them an additional melee to '11' (+5 to hit) as they're quite formidable as in original.

Stone Skin - I don't know how to do that. I'd be interested in adding 'large shield' or a less interesting but functional +2 armor.

Diplomacy: unchanged from original. I don't know how to mod these mechanics at all.

Nature/Chaos/Sorcery Masteries - They're meant for 1.0X (maybe 1.5X) power node options, and yes very dependent on luck!. I'm not sure why the 'insecticide mod' which this comes from allows such extreme unbalanced options like 2x or 2.5X

Summoning units on nodes and 'summoning sickness' - it's an unintentional issue. Maybe I'll document it to clear confusion. I really do like the concept of 'summoning sickness' for balancing purposes in combat for 'common' and 'uncommon' spell only.

I made some text fixes. The game really told you when outposts were done? I don't remember but if my mod somehow took it away, it's a shame.

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(October 24th, 2015, 18:46)zitro1987 Wrote: Thanks for giving it a few plays and giving feedback. I admit my hex editor modding skills are very basic and don't stand a chance against say, 'Caster of Magic'

Actually I think your mod is excellently balanced with a lot of thought gone into it. I'd quite like to learn how to mod at some point but am not really sure where to start. Is there a modders guide to getting started?

Quote:Books and starting common spells : sadly reverted back to unbalanced original to reverse severe error.

That's a shame. Funnily enough I was playing the game with random spells missing as an extra difficulty level.

Quote:Outposts? I actually boosted their growth compared to original. I believe settlers are generally well worth the effort.

Actually I think you're right. The problem was I was playing a large map and each turn took so long that it seemed longer than it actually was. It's quite quick on tiny maps.

Quote:Alchemist Guild being cheap - magic weapons don't have the +1 to hit bonus, only the benefits of hitting weapon-immune and if you have the luck of having mithril/adamantium.

I think half the problem is that weapon immunity is a bit of a half baked feature. Not many units/creatures have it so I generally just build the alchemist guild in all unit producing cities because it is cheap and gives you +3 mana and then forget about it. I can imagine if there were more units with WI and the building being more expensive and only give magical weapons, so it would mean the player would need to balance building the AG with other methods of dealing with WI units. It would then give the player a few more interesting decisions to make.

Quote:Food Upkeep - I would love to, but I honestly don't know how.

Ah right.

Quote:Nomads: only race that can build parthenon (an originally removed building) - it coming late tones down the advantage of a new building. Priests are normally weaker than nomad's version, which is why they come so late in the building tree.

The problem is that they come way after griffins which are excellent, so there's no real need to ever build priests. Also the oracle isn't a great building which I normally skip further reducing the chances of building them. The fact that the priests are better than other races priests doesn't mean they'll ever get built. It's like getting a much better swordsmen at the end of the building tree.

Quote:Bank: another race-only building - does not require coastal cities.

Oh right I thought they were coastal only for some reason. Actually I just checked and this is in your documentation:

"Merchant’s Guild removed. Bank only allowable in coastal cities. Marketplace not affected by tax changes."

Quote:Stone Giant (and Gorgons) with iron skin - a needed help to 'nature' realm against the great late military advantages from other realms.

Agreed. I wasn't complaining, I actually thought it was quite good that Stone Giants were so powerful, just it was quite jarring compared to basilisks. I reckon a Stone Giant could kill 3 Basilisks for only 50% more casting cost as it has way better melee stats, first strike and 2 long range attacks (as well as wall crusher).

Quote:Hail Storm at 5 damage per figure is only slightly weaker than original 'ice storm' at 100+ cost? I may lower the cost to 30-35. It's an early spell designed to weaken those neutral town's multi-figure spearmen/bowmen/swordsmen.

That might give it a bit more use. By the time I have 40 mana to use on a one off spell there is no need for a 5 damage effect. Plus it is a third of the cost of an early summon with conjuror which you can then use more than once.

Quote:Mercenaries and Heroes and Famous - Heroes rarely come on their own but are generally better with the initial high to hit, hit points, and +1armor/level. I have made some adjustments to a bunch of heroes, particularly gunther and shalla, but I have not brought back the standard constitution due to the standard experience +1armor/level perk. Famous 'triples' the chance of getting heroes, eliminates 10 military gold upkeep, while making it really easy to get mercenaries early on. It's worth 2 books as an early advantage makes you stronger later in the game.

Perhaps you are right, I am still relatively new to the game. Other people seem to think that famous is one of the best retorts.

Quote:Gave basilisk another hp. I'm nervous about giving them an additional melee to '11' (+5 to hit) as they're quite formidable as in original.

Cool I'll have to give them a bash.

Quote:Stone Skin - I don't know how to do that. I'd be interested in adding 'large shield' or a less interesting but functional +2 armor.

Ah I had assumed that this was the type of thing that could be done in the tweaker.

Quote:Nature/Chaos/Sorcery Masteries - They're meant for 1.0X (maybe 1.5X) power node options, and yes very dependent on luck!. I'm not sure why the 'insecticide mod' which this comes from allows such extreme unbalanced options like 2x or 2.5X

I got over 100 mana from a Arcanus node at 2x power option, so as Myrron nodes are twice as powerful then it could be possible to get that much per node at 1x power node option. In fact one node on Myrron gave me over 300 mana a turn, so even with 1x nodes it would be >150 which is what 6.5 fully built up cities? It just seems really unbalanced and dependent on luck more than anything. Also it ruins the early game choices a bit as the rush to secure these nodes overrides everything else.
The change to 4x for the book masteries whilst removing the other benefits is the only big change that I'm not very keen on.

Quote:Summoning units on nodes and 'summoning sickness' - it's an unintentional issue. Maybe I'll document it to clear confusion. I really do like the concept of 'summoning sickness' for balancing purposes in combat for 'common' and 'uncommon' spell only.

I guessed it was unintentional, but I thought I'd point out the bug in case you hadn't noticed it (and it is possible to fix).

Quote:I made some text fixes. The game really told you when outposts were done? I don't remember but if my mod somehow took it away, it's a shame.

Yes it did, but I'm wondering if Insecticide removed it rather than your mod.

How do you see the future of your mod? Might you incorporate some of the changes from Caster of Magic? (I have no idea how feasible if at all any of this is).
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"Yes it did, but I'm wondering if Insecticide removed it rather than your mod."

Wasn't removed. My mod is also built up from insecticide and you get a warning if an outpost turns into a city. So this is a bug.
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