RBP3 - [SPOILERS] - Team DIM (Mehmed of HRE)

[meatbalz]

to DJ

Hi guys,

Hello and well met. When you log in you'll see our scout Hernan Cortes has found Ladies Night. Hernan's come a long way to find you! We switched our EPs to your civ & will stop once we have visibility on your graphs if that's ok with you. Like I said, you guys are a fair distance from our capital; certainly further than the ~4000 tiles split among 17 civs would suggest you should be. Not sure what to make of it with the limited info we have on the map layout at the moment.

You're the second civ we've met and, from what we can see, your capital looks pretty different. Less... tree-y if you know what I mean. Did you guys settle a spot low on forests or are you turning those trees into a big pile of stones? :-)

Anyway - good to meet you. We'd like to send Hernan onwards to meet additional civs; if you could point us in the right direction we'd be much obliged. One other thing - given the distance between our civs, we could safely trade while avoiding border tensions. So we wanted to lay the groundwork for a technology trade if you're interested.

Regards

Meatbalz for DIM

bog standard. i'm confident they're chopping stonehenge based on the sabotage production (over 1000) figure in the espionage screen. will go back to sulla/speaker's RBP2 thread () and pull out the exact calculation.

edit: here's the calc, (Sabotage Production * (Their EP + 100)) / (Investigate City * 3)


sabotage production=1074
investigate city = 358
=> hammers in box = 100 exactly

[Ilios]

Well well, a lot of information to digest...

Diplomacy:

- A4

So they are pleased we’re pleased eh? Well, that pleases me…

Looking at the screenshot they sent us, it would seem that they started E of Aquilonia’s position. I’m glad that my educated guess they started with a river Rice proved to be correct.
I’m not sure, but it would seem that their silver was placed on a plains forest. Not really fair I’d say, given that ours was placed in a fetid jungle, which we won’t be able to remove until we discover sharper tools…

Meatbalz, correct me if I’m wrong, but they sent us a screenshot without the minimap, right? Then I would suggest removing ours as well before we send our screenshot back. No need to give them all our scouting secrets. (could we also remove my “city?” signs)

Is that a settler they have almost finished producing? I’m confident they will settle their second city near the horses, either N or NN from their warrior (NW or N-NW from the Corn). Could we maybe ask them to confirm? We could also tell them where we plan to settle our second city.

I think another easy way to gain their trust is regarding India. I suggest we inform A4 we’ve met them, and we then ask if they would mind us pointing out A4’s location to them.

- DJ

Fantastic catch on the Stonehedge MB!
Yes, they discovered BW around T15-16 (I don’t have access to my C&D spreadsheet at work), so India has probably been clearing their capital of its trees since. I’d probably have gone the Spulla way and chopped me some more workers and settlers out asap, but hey.
MB, do they even have a garrison unit? Another high risk start from this team!

Dotmap and Sandbox:

While I do agree that the Marble city would be a fantastic hammer site, I’m a bit concerned this would leave us a bit overextended, especially if we make it our third city.
(I think it isn’t a 2 hammer plant, looks like flat plains forest)

And let’s not forget that A4 might want the site for them.
Maybe we could convince them leaving the site for us, if we offer them the Gold/Sheep/FP site in return, AND we offer to trade the marble freely when they have a need for it (and we’re not using it to build Parthenon/Great Library/Mausoleum).

If we do get the site, I would propose we plant another city between city 2 and 3 (EE from the Spices, W from the peak tile), borrowing the grassland Sheep tile from city 2. If A4 would plant a city there, it would get culturally crushed from 3 sides, so we’d probably be able to get it as well.

Regarding the Sandbox, I was wondering how the city upkeep works.
I know the amount of land tiles is a factor, so Dazed, if you could add some more land tiles to get to the exact same tiles as the PB3 game, I’d be much obliged. But I don’t know if we need to take the total amount of tiles (ocean tiles included) into account as well. I’ll look into it as soon as I can.

Research:

I think it’s safe to assume that we’d get a few more teams into our tech alliance. So the tech we’re planning to use as trade material for could still change in the future.
I do hope we get the Marble site, so we can make use of the Masonry tech we’ll need to research, on our way to Monotheism.

[Ilios]

Ok never mind the number of tiles to calculate city maintance...

Found this on Civfanatics:

Distance Maintenance
Here is the tidy formula (ignoring rounding):

{from CvCity.cpp L4,899}
DistanceMaint = (Pop + 7) * 2.5 * Distance/DistanceScale * Building_m * WorldSize_m * Handicap_m

where

Distance = distance to closest goverment center (Palace, Forbidden Palace, Versailles)

As usual, distance is calculated by treating diagonal steps as 1.5 steps (round down the final result).

DistanceScale = (MapHeight + MapWidth) {from CvMap.cpp L925}

Height and/or Width are halved if there is wrapping in that direction.

Building_m = .5 if courthouse, 1 otherwise
Worldsize_m: Duel=.50, Tiny=.60, Small=.70, Standard=.80, Large=.90, Huge=1
Handicap_m: Settler=.45, Chieftain=.55, Warlord=.65, Noble=.75, Prince=.85, Monarch=.90, Emperor=.95, Immortal=1, Diety=1

The not-so tidy formula with all the rounding should be (worth verifing):

[ ([25*Distance*(Pop+7)/10] * Building_m * WorldSize_m * Handicap_m) / DistanceScale ]

Here [...] means round down. I left out a few [...] to keep it clean - you also have to round down after applying each of these multiplicative factors: Building_m, WorldSize_m, Handicap_m (apply the factors from left to right)

Big Curiosity (possible bug?): the '25' is actually the value of MAX_DISTANCE_CITY_MAINTENANCE in GlobalDefines.xml. Yet the 25 is just multiplied on; there is no min(25,distance) operation like you would think (See CvCity.cpp L4,912)


Number of Cities Maintenance
Here is a simplified formula (ignoring rounding and leaving out CityRank caclulations). 'N' is the number of cities you control:

{from CvCity.cpp L4,940}
CityMaint = N * (Pop + 17)/18 * WorldSize_m * Handicap_m + (1 for some cities, depending on cityrank)

CityMaint = min(CityMaint, CitiesHandicap) * Building_m

where

Worldsize_m: Duel=.45, Tiny=.40, Small=.35, Standard=.30, Large=.25, Huge=.20
Handicap_m: Settler=.40, Chieftain=.50, Warlord=.60, Noble=.70, Prince=.80, Monarch=.85, Emperor=.90, Immortal=.95, Diety=1
CitiesHandicap: Settler=4, Chieftain=4, Warlord=5, Noble=5, Prince=6, Monarch=6, Emperor=7, Immortal=7, Diety=8
Building_m = .5 if courthouse, 1 otherwise


The full formula is (again apply the following multiplicative factors from left to right and round down after each multiplication: WorldSize_m, Handicap_m, Building_m):

NumCitiesPercent = [100 * (Pop + 17)/18] * WorldSize_m * Handicap_m

CityMaint = [N * NumCitiesPercent/100] + (1 if CityRank/N * 100 > 100 - (N * NumCitiesPercent) % 100)

CityMaint = min(CityMaint, CitiesHandicap) * Building_m

CityRank is 0 for the captial, 1 for the next closest city, and so forth (more precisely CityRank goes by distance first, game turn founded second, and unique city ID third.) '%' is the modulo operation, i.e. 11 % 3 = 2. Intuitively cities with higher city rank get the +1. Because of the modulo though it ends up being more of a fudge factor.

Now I'm not going to claim I get all of this, but I plan on learning...

[Ilios]

Ok new turn is up.

Units

- Tricky moved SE, nothing special to report, suggest we continue SE next turn
- Brute got attacked by a wolf, not a scratch, suggest we move him NW
- Hernan, suggest we move him on the hill west, unless we want to wait for a reply from India
- Stakhanov, Wheat finished in 4 turns

C & D

Ok the screenshot A4 sent us was probably from turn 23, Aquilonia had just grown to size 3. I looked at it again and it's NOT working a settler, but a warrior, which finished the turn after. They LOST a warrior around T27, maybe we could add a small condolence letter...
Aquilonia has grown to size 4 this turn.

[meatbalz]

hey not saying that has to be our third city, but just bear in mind this is emperor level and barbs will start becoming a headache too. we also still don't know who our neighbours are to N, S, and E. i pray there's no aztec, byz, or rome but you never know; if worst comes to worst and they're around, a strong military might persuade them to look elsewhere. overextension wouldn't be a problem as it would be negotiated with the ottomans.

anyway, this is up for discussion - we still don't have a good feel for our surroundings in other directions but at the moment i feel it's the strongest 3rd city site. speaking of which- the turn's rolled over.

[meatbalz]

just had a VERY long in-game chat with rego. i can't find a way to export it

1) tentative at the moment but they're looking to take alpha to ensure they're part of a tech trading group.
2) ruff is about 12 tiles due E of them
3) they are indeed chopping stonehenge, due in 1
4) there's a civ W of them
5) they've only met ruff for now
6) rego's not official diplomat
7) lion 2W of our scout (i must have hit the wrong key while typing and sent him there )
8) he'll ask ruff if he has any units in the area to set up a meeting

they know
1) we're ~40 tiles SE
2) there's an unknown civ due W of us
3) we're going for monarchy
4) we know how to see what they're building
5) we want to set up or be a part of a tech trade (but wouldn't commit as they don't trust us yet)

i haven't told them yet
1) we're very close diplomatically w/ the ottomans
2) about our tech trading agreements
3) there's a lot of land between them + ottomans.

they haven't told me yet
1) well how would i know if they haven't told me

brute still needs to be moved so haven't ended turn. tricky dick went onto forest, there's a forest hill + tile bleed shows another forest 2E 1N. remember there's a lion 2W of cortes.

here's a part of the chat, maybe 1/3 of it (character limit)



fyi never doing that copy/paste thing again

[Ilios]

Ok so I moved our warriors further on forests.
Brute is now on a forested hill, and because he has an excellent field of vision, I'd like him to go NW on flat grounds (if no barb animals in sight). After that maybe once more NW, and then swing back south towards the capital anticipating the settler. (finished in 10 turns according to mp)

Tricky can either move NE on a hill, or continue E or SE. E would be best probably, those tiles to the north of him will become visible asa Dim pops its border again (only in 20 turns though)

New warrior finished and fortified in DIM.

We got a message from A4 asking us to switch EP as they've met Carthage. As they have sent a PM as well, I took the liberty of telling them we'd already switched the EP's away, but that you would give our official reply, Meat'.
(I also offered our condolences on their lost warrior, sorry, couldn't help myself :neenernee)

Dazed, anything to add re diplomacy, because we should reply A4 today.

As expected, India finished Stonehenge, jumping to the #1 spot. Exploit's capital is the second city growing to size 4. (Not that lurkers could verify, seeing the guy doesn't even have a spoiler thread)

[dazedroyalty]

I'm good on the diplo messages. Will be at my bros graduation tomorrow so I'm not sure my availability. Will check in as possible.

[Ilios]

I just thought of something. India mentioned that Ruff is about 12 tiles due east to their capital. We could use that information to our advantage. As soon as we start negotiating preferred city sites with A4, I would like us to give them this information. We need to stress that it is in their interest to get a settler to the Gold/Sheep/FP site asap, to prevent it being poached by Ruff Hi. We keep this as our ace when negiotiating our preferred Marble site.
Anyway, last player has just logged in, so turn is about to roll over

[Ilios]

Turn 30:

Ok "someone" had automated Hernan (I'm absolutely not looking at you MB ), so he has been prancing around for the last couple of turn, and hasn't even gotten himself killed yet... I hadn't realised it last turn, because I thought someone had moved him at the beginning of the turn to avoid a lion.
Anyway, automation turned off, and we can move him either towards Ruff or to the west next turn.

I had another tingly feeling with Tricky the Lucky, so I decided to move him on the hill to clear the remaining fogged tiles to Dim's south...
There be gold! And corn! (better not tell it to A4, let's make them think their gold is exclusive...)



Mining came in, Bronze Working started at 16 turns. I think we can shave off another turn once we start working the grassland hill mine.