RBP3 - [SPOILERS] - Team DIM (Mehmed of HRE)

[Ilios]

Turn 31:

Hernan was moved on a hill for a better view. There is a bear to the south, so I recommend we move him NW on the forest, we can move him on a forested hill WW the turn after.

Brute has discovered another prime site. We can move him once more NW and then move him SW and continue back to Dim on the forest tiles.




New warrior has been baptised Cain.

I'll need your input for Tricky. Do we continue to move him counter clockwards around the capital, or do we head south to find out if the poles are connected?

Edit: we're second to last, so I moved him SE, we can go in either direction afterwards...

[Ilios]

Guys, as you both seem to have disappeared, I played the turn.
Brute is bracing himself for an almost certain Lion hug. He's on a forest, but let's keep our fingers crossed anyhow!


When you get back from what you're doing, I'd like to have a discussion about the game, particularly our research path and future city sites. I'd prefer to talk to you via chat, because I've got some ideas I'd like to bounce around.


Meatbalz, India sent us a short message yesterday asking us if our scout had been eaten by a lion. I replied Hernan was alive and kicking, if just a tad befuddled as he didn't remember how he got where he is now. (automated scout )

[dazedroyalty]

Sorry that I've been away. Like I mentioned my brother graduated from the Navy training yesterday so we were together all day but then his flight today got cancelled so we were together again.

I like that site that Brute found! Fingers crossed for the lion attack...

[Ilios]

Congrats to your brother Dazed!


Small diplo update:

A4 have informed us that they have a full message ready for us, but they want to wait till next turn (t33) before sending it to us. Apparently Conan will be facing some barbarians on the interturn, and A4 will then send their message.
I asked them whether they were already facing barb warriors, and wished them luck.

DJ tell us Krill is walking around their lands, and Ruff seems to have a warrior in the area as well. They ask us if we want to head back to Ladies night (what a horrible name for a city, next city "Rave party"?) and meet up.
I haven't replied them yet, but I think it's worth it backtracking a couple of tiles to meet to more civs. (bringing us to four)

MB, I can't remember if you did already, but could we ask A4 for a the location of Carthage? (or at least ask where they met)

[meatbalz]

i'm here as you know it's been a busy period for me, but i've been keeping up with the thread (although not posting)

diplo looks like it's about to heat up.

chat sounds good but i most liekly won't be able to do it until wednesday evening (sorry) so perhaps better to run through your thoughts via email to begin with?

edited to add: wonder why A4 need to wait until the outcome to send us the message?

further edit: we have GOLD! how the heck did i miss this??? it looks to me like city 3 must go here unless we have a compelling reason to settle elsewhere. the northern pig/horse location is mighty tempting but that gold city will pay for itself, do wonders for our tech rate, and will only delay an additional city by ~5 turns if we micro chops. the whole point of border negotiations is so that even if we get the rights to marble city, we can delay settling it.

on that note, i wanted to negotiate by offering them the marble for the duration of the NAP (with a clause we can use it for 10 turns with a 10 turn notice period), discounts on tech trades, military units, or a combination. any of these you guys think should be off the table?

[meatbalz]

i think we need to send cain out to the forested plains hill in preparation for the settler. we have good visibility out of DIM and can't see any bogies incoming, if anyone does approach our capital a warrior can be done in 2 turns. we obviously can't send the settler unescorted, and tricky's doing critical exploraton work. ideal time to move him is when settler is 3 turns away from completion

again i'm going to strongly argue city 3 goes near the gold, and specifically in the fogged tile 1E of the gold. a few reasons:
1) reduces wasted tiles between capital, city 2 + city 3
2) can improve gold immediately + a forest is there to chop a monument
3) 11 cotteageable riverside tiles (2nd best configuration that includes gold+corn), 12 cotteageable in all.

max potential is pretty good, can work 11 riverside cottages under HR.

tricky goes E, NE, NW the next 3 turns, all along forests. if there's a compelling reason to move city3, we'll know in the next 3 turns.


my city build plan right now (before copper) would be:
city 2 horse/sheep
city 3 gold/corn
city 4 marble
city 5 pig/horse/wheat

[meatbalz]

First attempt at City 2 micro plan (+ city 1 microplan through T50)

city 1 micro:

T39 onwards can be modified as follows.
T40 BW 139/216 worker 12/60
T41 BW 153/216 worker 24/60
T42 BW 167/216 worker 36/60
T43 BW 181/216 worker 48/60
T44 BW 195/216 warrior 00/15 4/1/2 4/1/0 3/0/1 2/1/1
T45 BW 209/216 warrior 03/15 food 07/26
T46 anarchy
T47 TW 07/108 warrior 06/15 food 14/26 chop 3t
T48 TW 20/108 warrior 09/15 food 21/26 4/1/2 4/1/0 1/3/1 2/1/1
T49 TW 33/108 warrior done, settler 00/100 food 00/28 4/1/2 4/1/0 1/3/1 3/0/1 2/1/1
T50 TW 47/108 settler 32/100
T51 TW 61/108 settler 44/100 2x-whipped
T52...T63 capital regrows building chariots or a barracks until pottery is available

capital can grow size 2->5 in 12 turns

so we'd have (assuming no copper)
worker2 T44
warrior4 T49
settler2 T52

city 2 micro:

T42 founded
T42 monument 00/30 3/0/1 2/1/1 pasture 4t
T43 monument 01/30 food 03/22
T44 monument 02/30 food 06/22
T45 monument 03/30 food 09/22
T46 monument 04/30 food 12/22, work 2/3/2 2/1/1 move to forest (BW done this turn) (worker 2 from capital farm 5t)
T47 monument 08/30 food 14/22 chop 3t
T48 monument 12/30 food 16/22
T49 monument 16/30 food 18/22
T50 chariot 10/30 food 20/22 move to forest
T51 chariot 14/30 food 00/24 work 4/1/0 2/3/2 2/1/1 chop 3t, worker 2 goes to city 3 site (DIM finishes settler this turn)
T52 chariot 19/30 food 04/24
T53 chariot 24/30 food 08/24
T54 chariot 19/30 food 12/24 move to forest 2E (prechop)
T55 chariot 24/30 food 16/24 prechop 3t
T56 chariot 29/30 food 20/24 stop prechop
T57 chariot? 04/30 food 00/26 move to forest hill work 4/1/0 2/3/2 3/0/1 2/1/1
T58 chariot? 09/30 food 05/26 chop 3t
T59 chariot? 14/30 food 10/26
T60 chariot? 19/30 food 15/26
T61 chariot? 14/30


T50 monument
T54 chariot
T57 chariot
T61 chariot?

[Ilios]

Welcome back MB!

Concerning the gold site:

I was actually going to argue settling the gold tile first. We can work the gold tile while slow building a monument.
Here's why:

- Our tech is going to suck, even after/if we discover pottery
- By the time we settle the horses, we won't even be able to build chariots, because we haven't discovered The Wheel yet.
- Settling the gold tile first will practically double our research rate. Upkeep wise, it is only 5 tiles from the capital (5.5 actually, rounded down). Our preferred horse site is 7 tiles from the capital (diagonal moves count for 1.5 distance)
- By the time we finish Bronze Working, DIM will have reached 100 culture and popped its border a second time, connecting our cities for another 2 free commerce
- Here's a simulation after we finish the settler

T39 finish settler, start worker
T44 finish worker
T45-46 Bronze working comes in
T48 finish warrior #4, start settler (with some micromanagement we can finish the warrior exactly with growing to size 4)
T54 finish settler #2 (with 2 forest chops) -> worker
anarchy 1 turn -> slavery
This means the settler finishes in time for the wheel so we can mass produce some chariots (it'd have to be in horse city, because we're going to need 10 worker turns, or 5 roads to connect it with the capital)

- the ultimate reason I'd like to go for this site first, is that I would really like to land Judaism, for happiness and culture, and I believe the only way we can do that is by increasing our research rate and maybe even skip Pottery until after Monotheism. (I'd even skip the Wheel if we get Copper on a river)
- skip those cheap granaries you say? Madness!! Our cities are capped at 4, 5 as soon as we get the gold connected, and DIM pops its border. This means that even if we slave, we don't want our cities to grow back too fast because they'll grow themselves into unhappiness
- going for this site first has one condition, and that's we get an agreement with A4 on preferred sites. If we can establish our future borders, there's no need to grab those sites west asap, because we're sure they won't be taken in the near future

Anyway that's what I wanted to discuss with you guys...

Thoughts?

[meatbalz]

you're correct that chariots won't come until TW, overlooked in first draft but easily fixed by putting the first chops into a barracks. what it comes down to is emperor-level barbs are no joke. i wouldn't feel safe delaying chariots until 3rd city.

monotheism requires at its cheapest poly and masonry 180, 144, and 216 for mono itself. we wouldn't start it until T55 at the earliest (delaying cottages and granaries to do so). even at 20 beakers/turn @ 100% we're talking 7.5T for poly, 5T masonry, 8T for mono.

will mono last until T75? no way... it's not a viable plan. even skipping TW, we're still talking ~T67. it won't last that long.

great point re: chariots though. will revise original plan to have a barracks come out first. not saying definitely not gold site first - but if we're doing it to found judaism, it's a non-starter.

[Ilios]

Barracks this early in the game are absolutely not necessary. We need units, not experience. (see PB2)
Allthough it's emperor level, don't forget we'll only be having warriors coming at us (type of barb units depends on which techs have been researched. In SP, all the AI's start with Archery, hence a lot of archers appearing. See PB2, all those barb cities appeared with warriors inside).

And I don't think Monotheism will be reached that quick by the other teams. We won't be able to work a lot of cottages anyhow because of our small size.
Anyway, we don't have to decide our tech path right away. I suggest we keep discussing until BW comes in (ETA 13 turn I think). It just seems a pity to go for Monarchy and not get the benefits of the techs we need to get there.