RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[regoarrarr]

Why didn't anyone remind me about Laboratories?!?!?!?

What, you mean the 10 minutes since my last post wasn't enough time?!?! (even if it would be allowed under Lurker CoC)

Okay, so laboratories makes it a 3.6 modifier, which means that to do 150 hpt (1200 hammer part with doubler), a city in a GA only needs 42 hammers, not 49. Much more doable.

So I think i don't even need to bother with the Space Elevator, which would give another 50% bonus, dropping the needed base hammers to 37. But it's too much of a tip off and pretty expensive in its own right.

Questionable if I even need the 3 gorges dam, since by the tiem I get that, pretty much all the big cities will already have coal plants. I guess I can see if health is becoming an issue

[regoarrarr]

The other thing that I forgot is that if I land the Statue of Liberty, that's a free specialist (engineer in most every city) so add 2 to every city's base hammer count.

[Cyneheard]

So I think i don't even need to bother with the Space Elevator, which would give another 50% bonus, dropping the needed base hammers to 37.

Space Elevator is +100%, not +50%.

Edit: Oops. 50% it is. No wonder I usually felt it was barely worth building.

[T-hawk]

Not in my experience. Space Elevator is +50% towards spaceship parts. You might be mentally also adding the +50% from laboratory, or thinking about a +100% resource doubler.

[regoarrarr]

Space Elevator is +100%, not +50%.

Edit: Oops. 50% it is. No wonder I usually felt it was barely worth building.

Right - see also

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/wonders

Diplomatic messages came in

Elkad:

declared on dsp at the turn flip.

Killed 7 ships (frigates and caravels). Blocked his mainland port (trapping 6 galleys inside) to keep his ironclads from hiding there. Also blockaded, which means the ships at/near his island city can't get oil for upgrades.

He'd have to beat a drill4 destroyer with 2 injured ironclads (hit with airships) to break the blockade this turn, doubt he'll even try.

And from Munro:

Thanks for the note. Rolling NAP with 10 turns cooldown sounds good.

I honestly don't see Sunrise backstabbing you and Elkad won't likely be around much longer so I don't think you have anything too much to be worried about there.

dsp/shady is going to be a problem for us both eventually though - especially if they absorb Elkad as well. Siding with dsp to help him take out you (or visa versa) clearly isn't an option - he'd become unstoppable and what we would gain anyway. So I think we'll all have to take them on eventually, and I think it'll probably be a fun battle. Bit of exclusive tech trading though beforehand (i.e. leave dsp/shady out of the loop) clearly wouldn't hurt to see if we can pull ahead a bit first, so no rush I don't think.

[regoarrarr]

On the other front, the barbs saved me a settler!



And even managed to get it right on the dot map! So it's T193, assuming it's working the 2/1/0 grass forest or deer, should grow on T204.

Hmm it's now T207 and that stupid barb city is still size 1. Building a worker? Anyone ever seen that?

[novice]

Yes, I've seen that happen.

[regoarrarr]

Email reply from Dreylin - not the greatest

While I agreed with your position on the gold/silver during the course of the war, the "spoils" equation changed considerably when Exploit surrendered and gifted you all of his troops. As I previously said, I'm happy to make one of them available to you for trade, but I no longer consider myself bound to go as far as gifting the metal for free.

As for the troop repayment; I would actually prefer Workers to additional troops, but if you intend to send me Infantry instead I can't really argue. I'm a little surprised that you are wanting to attach a clause to them, since there were no limitations placed on the original gift, but I guess I could agree to something along the lines of: "these units cannot be used to attack Indian units outside of Lin territory". Would that be enough to satisfy you?

[regoarrarr]

Chat with Dreylin

Dreylin: hi
me: hi
i was trying to get a hold of you and i and broker and sunrise
but broker hasn't been on tonight and now sunrise is gone too
Dreylin: ah well
been tied up 'til now
me: no problem
Dreylin: you got my e-mail?
me: yeah
i also saw that you had researched demo and given it to elkad - i thought that you had said that you would be giving it around to "those who weren't at war with you or your allies" but I wasn't sure if maybe you were waiting to see my response to your email?
Dreylin: Yeah, actually I was
plus I'm kind-of hoping to grab the statue myself
...
me: yeah?
Dreylin: and wanted to chat about it before passing the tech around
(I fugured that Elkad's got other things on his plate)
me: right
so want to chat about it now?
Dreylin: sure
I'd like to land the statue
....
or did you mean the other stuff?
me: well you said you wanted to chat about it
i wasn't sure what alll "it" was
are you saying that you are only looking to trade it to people that will agree to not build the statue?
Dreylin: No
but the timing might be different?
Are you saying you have no interest in receiving Democracy unless you can land the statue?
me: hmm
i wouldn't say it quite like that
but i also have statue interest
Dreylin: Well of course, you are the biggest civ out there
me: guess we're moving into an interesting times...
(2nd)
Dreylin: i score, maybe
*in score
me: dsp has more land and more pop points than i
but your poitn is still valid
Dreylin: There are three main alliances at the moment, right?
why shouldn't I want to secure the Statue for mine?
me: perfectly reasonable
Dreylin: Here's my reading of our negotiations so far:
You are clearly more powerful
but if you were to exercise that power against me now, that would likely lead to a you vs. the rest situration
and I don't think either of us knows whether you'd come out on top in that
Sent at 9:34 PM on Monday
Dreylin: so we're dancing around seeing how far we can nudge each other
me: so stepping back a bit about the statue
if we reach an agreement that oen of us will build it and one of us will not
and some sort of concessions were involved
we should be able to reach a position where the value is equivalent on both sides?
1 side gets the statue and pays some amount (of whatevers)
and 1 side doesn't get the statue but recieves some sort of compensation
as an example, i paid m_h / kodii something to agree to not build the hanging gardens
Dreylin: well, we do have several other issues which remain outstanding
me: true
would you like to talk about those first?
Dreylin: but if we skipped them for the moment
me: ok
Dreylin: what would you have in mind?
me: i don't know
i was just seeing if you agreed with the general idea of that
i mean somewhere in the middle the concessions have to be equal enough that it shoudln't matter which side one chose
i mean it's like the old family trick when dividing cake between 2 kids
1 person cuts the cake and the other person chooses which "half" they want
(disclaimer - i may be totally making that up )
Dreylin: which is a pretty large order when you're talking about a Specialist per city for the rest of the game
me: yeah
Sent at 9:41 PM on Monday
me: so it appears to me that you don't think that there are enough concessions to make up for the otehr person building the statue?
like there's nothing i could give you that would make up for yo unot getting to build it?
(or vice versA)
Dreylin: Well I have one idea
which I'd need to run past my allies
but even then I'm not sure if it's worthwhile
me: do you want to wait to run it past them before mentionig it to me?
Dreylin: I don't know!
me: well, if you want, though i won't hold you to it if you mention it now
we're just throwing ideas out
Dreylin: I'm stilltrying to think it through
because it's not completely one-sided
it would definitely change the shape of the game
Sent at 9:47 PM on Monday
Dreylin: I take it you have no ideas?
me: the only thing i have thought about was some sort of payment on the specialist output
but it seems hard to quantify
Dreylin: agreed
me: though if you say N cities * 3 commerce or whatever
Dreylin: *6
me: well, if in rep
Dreylin: and why wouldn't you be?
me: and converting between sci / hammers / espionage / whatever
right but that could be in the agreement
was your thought on that same basic line?
or something different
Dreylin: very different
I'd skipped over that one as being too hard to quantify without endless number-crunching
me:
Dreylin: Particularly since beaker / gold are rather abstract at the moment
Sent at 9:53 PM on Monday
Dreylin: broadly, my idea was to offer you the statue in return for sufficient concessions to buy my alliance space and a fair chance to race you to the stars
but I haven't worked out a way to do that without also making you invulnerable....
me: invulnerable in what way?
Dreylin: and thus give us a chance to win
Well, say I tied you into a game-long NAP
doesn't that also benefit you?
me: yes
though probably not as much as say, a game long NAP with shadyforce
Dreylin: Heh, shady and NAPs!
me: lol
i know
i guess that goes to another thought worth talkinga bout
how do you see this game ending?
i have been operating under the impression that space and culture were pretty much out
unless all the remaining powers left kind of agree to just race
like say.... pbem1
Dreylin: well that implies either a staged diplo
or war
so then the question becomes who controls the most ground
then most production
and the best tactics
me: do you disagree? you brought up space - do you think that's possible?
Dreylin: not if we didn't sign some sort of agreement
I think we tear at each other
but unless someone gets a decisive vcitory
it may come down to someone sneaking into Space while defending strongholds
me: i guess
Dreylin: or just one alliance voting their candidate for diplo
(probably that)
me: yeah i've thought about that but it seems kind of chees
cheesy
Dreylin: sure, but it's a ictory, right?
me: yeah
Dreylin: what we seemed poised for now
is for the Broker & rego alliances to gang up on the dsp alliace
until either:
1) a suitable level of dsp/shady has been defeated
when the weaker of our two alliances switches sides
or 2) they are wiped out and the two remaining alliances war
me: yes i would agree that seems to be the most likely outcome of where things are heading
Dreylin: (of course the actual positions of the three alliances has yet to be determined
Sent at 10:05 PM on Monday
me: positions meaning?
Dreylin: well it's not finalised that it will be you & us vs. them
but that's the way things seem to be heading
me: gotcha
Sent at 10:11 PM on Monday
Dreylin: btw that's not to imply that either of us are looking to switch sides, just that things haven't progress as far as being set
iyswim
me: right i know what you mean
Sent at 10:13 PM on Monday
me: okay well i'm off to bed
anything else beforei go?
Dreylin: I guess I'll wait for your response to my e-mail?
me: oh right
i had some thoughts about that
but i guess i'll sum up and reply
Dreylin: OK

[regoarrarr]

Email reply to Dreylin

Dreylin,

Well I guess on the whole gold/silver thing we will just have to agree to disagree. As it happens, with Exploit's Demise (sounds like a great city name! <g>), my war weariness has dissipated, so I have some happy room in most of my cities anyways. Perhaps if we once again fight shoulder to shoulder (and I start to accrue more WW), we can revisit this. And if I happen to accrue WW because I'm fighting YOU, then we won't be able to trade and it won't matter anwyays :-D

And as for the unit gifts, it sounds like you would prefer workers over infantry, and that eliminates the need to deal with any kind of military clause (though of course as we saw in the Incan war that fast workers certainly have a place in a military brigade). I will compare this with what I offered sunrise, which was 3 fast workers. In addition he traded me a destroyer for 3 missionaries and a 4th worker. So how about, assuming we can come to some sort of agreement on Democracy, I will give you 4 workers (2 fast, 2 "normal"). We can adjust those spoils up or down depending on what we figure out.

I was talking a bit to Broker this morning and hopefully when sunrise gets on, the 4 of us can chat a bit.

Also chatted a bit with Broker

Broker: dsp seems to be letting the timer run. Hate that
Sent at 9:16 AM on Tuesday
me: where'd you go last night?
Broker: No where. Didnt get on till after 11 wife is sick and wanted to watch tv with me
that and I was running anti virus and spam programs. Got a bug on the pc
having problems getting rid of it
me: ah - was looking to chat with you guys
dreylin denied my request for democracy
Broker: He did say he was having some discussions with you
me: yeah
Sent at 9:21 AM on Tuesday
me: i was kind of surprised by the denial since it seems like this is the same thing that you are mad at dsp about (not giving artillery to elkad)
Broker: Not exactly it was an extra side tech not a main military one
me: eh
Broker: I was under the impression me you and dsp as the main techers were sharing with each others allies
me: but why should i share techs with your allies, when they don't share techs with me?
when i got communism, which was an "extra side tech"
i gave it to you and dreylin and everyone
i mean i'm not saying that i'm going to hold off on trading with you any more
but i'm a little disappointed here
Broker: It is probably more a timing issue I am sure you will get it
Sent at 9:27 AM on Tuesday
Broker: and I believe fascism was the counterballance to communism that we agreed to
me: i understand
but if we're freely trading techs, then we should be freely trading techs from whoever
not just you and i
Sent at 9:29 AM on Tuesday
Broker: I can see that point but mine and your tech rates are about even. Are you telling me you would trade off techs if say sunrise was able to tech without additional compensation?
me: yes i think so
if we were freely trading techs
i mean from my understanding sunrise has also been providing you and dreylin with gold
we just finished a close mutual military struggle
i understand that at some point you might want to consider stopping the free trade of techs
i just didn't think it was yet
Broker: I am sure he has his reasons. Not entirely sure what they are but I dont believe he intends to freeze you out of the tech just the timing of it
me: we had some talks about the statue of liberty yesterday
Broker: I am talking hear without all of the information so you will have to forgive me if I am evasive. I just dont know what exactly is going on
me: okay
maybe when sunrise gets on, the 4 of us can sit down and chat
Broker: The statue may be part of the issue I am unsure. He mentioned he has other issues with you besides demo but did not go into detail
Sent at 9:34 AM on Tuesday

I have to say I'm a bit annoyed by this. You can certainly make the case that Dreylin was the one who researched Democracy, so he should have the "rights" to the Statue, but the flip side is that he only researched Democracy because other folks were researching the key military techs and giving them to him.

I am seriously considering a) researching Democracy myself, and b) trading Radio for Industrialism and trying to align with dsp / shady.