[Spoilers] Dreylin's short visit to a late Era

[Dreylin]

Yeah, I don't expect to last long...

Password:

Peace

[BRickAstley]

Game Rules and Settings:

Server: pitboss.watto.no:2060

Game tracker: http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2946

Claim your civ: (the password is sirian)

Game Host unified tech thread (for all Caledorn hosted games):
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...pid=494726

Host: Caledorn
Sponsor: BRickAstley
Starting Era: Industrial Era
Players: 7 Player game

Game Version: BtS 3.19, No Mod
Map: Custom-built, skewed towards balance. ~160 tiles a player, a reasonable water presence.
World Size: Standard
World Wrap: Toroidal
Game Speed: Normal
Difficulty: Prince

Industrial Era Start differences from Ancient Start:

Cities: Are size 3 when founded, start with a granary, market, aqueduct, forge, (lighthouse, and harbor if coastal).
Settlers: Are about 3 times as expensive as ancient start games.
Starting Units: 3 settlers, 2 workers, 2 explorers, 2 rifles, 1 machine gun (Changed from a rifle to limit early all-in rushes).
Tech: Steam Power, Scientific Method, and Steel researchable, all previous techs acquired. Picture:

Builds Available: See Pictures:


(Theater is available, not sure why it is grayed out there.)
Civics Available: All except Police State, State Property, Environmentalism:

Religions: On the 5th turn, each player will automatically found one religion. If you haven't founded a city by then.... Well you have bigger problems probably. (This is also partly why there's a strict 7 player slots, so the religions are spread evenly)

House Rules:
Banned: Nukes, Blockades, Active Spy Missions
No: Huts, Events, Vassal States, Tech Trading, Unit/City Trades, Diplomatic victory
Double Moves and Diplomacy:

Diplomacy: "Pitboss-AI-diplo"
You can make any offers for any item the trade window allows you to make, excepting cities.
Any trades offered to another player are treated as valid trade offers.
You my not communicate using: chat box in diplomacy window, unit names, city names, outside communication, in game chat, anything else in this vein.
You may not gift units to or trade cities with another player.

Double moves: "Don't be a jerk."
Peace time or when you're not planning to start war: play as soon as you are able, no need to worry.
During war preparation turn (at least 1 turn before) and during war, double moves are not allowed. When you declare on your opponent (and then end turn), he must complete a turn before you can play another one.
When going to settle a city, and you see that another player has sent out a settler in the general vicinity as well, you must attempt to alternate turns, to avoid double moving someone to claim a city site.
If there is a situation not covered above, where a player gains a clear and 'underhanded' advantage over another player in an area of contention due to a double move, that situation can be appealed to the game admin, who can determine if the game needs to be reloaded or is fine to carry on at his discretion.
If there is a problem with play windows making it impossible to observe a turn split, or a tangled web of wars that need to be straightened out for turns to be practically played, please PM the game admin for assistance resolving the situation.

Players (& dedlurkers):

• Pindicator (mackoti): Boudica (Agg/Chm) of Russia
  
• Boldly Going Nowhere (spacetyrantxenu): Asoka (Spi/Org) of Aztec
  
• Scooter (Sullla): Montezuma (Agg/Spi) of Germany
  
• Cheater Hater & Donovan Zoi (greenline): Peter (Exp/Phi) of India
  
• Dreylin (Elum, OT4E): Gandhi (Phi/Spi) of the Khmer
  
• ReallyEvilMuffin: Julius Caesar (Imp/Org) of Japan
  
• Gaspar&NobleHelium (Old Harry): Darius (Fin/Org) of the Dutch
  

[Elum]

Hey man I'm super interested in this variant, are you interested in a dedlurker with minimal time? In any case what are your thoughts about picks? I sense that bulbing techs may be crucial, along with workshop spam.

[Dreylin]

Howdy! Happy to have someone to bounce ideas off - helps get me out of my more indecisive moments!

TBH I haven't put a lot of thought into picks yet, but both PHI and SPI seem like they should be pretty strong traits, while some of the other traits lose out due to pre-built buildings (I see only 1 EXP on the list). I also need to keep reminding myself that this is Base BTS since I've got the mod traits in my mind. Also ORG for cheap Factories.

I took a quick look at the civics last night and got as far as starting in Merc for quick GP and Serfdom to speed Workers. But I think there's a lot of potential to want to change them as we go. (although I said that when I selected SPI for the late-era EitB game and I have switched civics exactly 0 times since saving the first 2t of Anarchy )

This is Base BTS, so Traits, UB, etc. are also as such ... i.e. not as balanced or as front-loaded as in RtR.

I also checked the Wonders available, and there are only 2; Taj and Statue of Liberty. PHI Engineer into rushbuild either of these might be a strong opening, although not sure if we'd get the whole of SoL, and there's no Copper in sight.

That's about as far as I've got; need to spend some more time looking at traits, but especially the UU/UB combos.

[BRickAstley]

Definitely a lot of variables to think about.

[Elum]

Howdy! Happy to have someone to bounce ideas off - helps get me out of my more indecisive moments!

Excellent.

TBH I haven't put a lot of thought into picks yet, but both PHI and SPI seem like they should be pretty strong traits, while some of the other traits lose out due to pre-built buildings (I see only 1 EXP on the list). I also need to keep reminding myself that this is Base BTS since I've got the mod traits in my mind. Also ORG for cheap Factories.

Yeah my mind is set to RtR now, it's hard going back. With the 3 pop cities the expensive settlers are a great deal so to me that buffs IMP and but yeah EXP feels a bit weak with no buildings. PHI stuck out to me immediately as a winner but I can't think of a great beeline, REX with no regard for eco and bulb the way to railroad? Cheap factories would be great in a hammer economy.

I took a quick look at the civics last night and got as far as starting in Merc for quick GP and Serfdom to speed Workers. But I think there's a lot of potential to want to change them as we go. (although I said that when I selected SPI for the late-era EitB game and I have switched civics exactly 0 times since saving the first 2t of Anarchy )

This is Base BTS, so Traits, UB, etc. are also as such ... i.e. not as balanced or as front-loaded as in RtR.

Merc and Serfdom stood out to me, with the availability of workshops I think slavery is not worth it but worker whips could be great early on. With the religion pop on t5 I was toying with the idea Pacifism to accelerate the GP, it could be a gamble depending on where the holy city pops. Emancipation is an interesting question, are cottages worth it at all when 3 hammer workshops are available? I feel like there may be some math to do here () and it does raise the question of how to generate a meaningful amount of beakers in good time.

I also checked the Wonders available, and there are only 2; Taj and Statue of Liberty. PHI Engineer into rushbuild either of these might be a strong opening, although not sure if we'd get the whole of SoL, and there's no Copper in sight.

That's about as far as I've got; need to spend some more time looking at traits, but especially the UU/UB combos.

I'm not sure about a Taj rush but SoL could be great long term. As for UUs *cough* panzers *cough*.

[Dreylin]

Cards on the table, my first thought was to take Russia and go Cossack someone(s?) to death though I fully recognise that is unresolved scar tissue from PB28. Curse you wetbandit!

The thing about tech is that it may take quite a while to get to something akin to a functioning economy, by which time there's a decent chance we'll already be at war or whatever. I just don't have a feeling on how long it'd take to get to making a significant dent in the tech cost each turn. Really my only comparison is EitB46 where we're 70turns (Quick) in and no-one has researched anything yet, but we can draw whatever conclusions from that we want to or not bother due to the significant differences. Anyway, unit costs and maintenance costs are going to be a big deal in the early game as we are working crap tiles / specialists.

2 starting Workers and 3pop cities mean we're going to be working a lot of unimproved tiles early on, whipping that pop straight off into other Workers, or going with Specialists (Caste?).

Civics thoughts:
Rep vs. Uni Suff: +3beakers is not a whole lot on a 2-3000b tech, but will we be making enough money to rushbuy?
Bureau: probably for the short-term boost
Slavery vs. Serfdom: faster Workers, or whipping into them - probably depends if we are looking seriously at Specialists. (Market & Forge mean we can support 3 naturally without Caste)
Merc: clear winner short-term vs. Free Market
OrgRel vs. Pacifism vs. FreeRel: if we want to spread it manually, it has to be OrgRel, since SciMeth obsoletes Monasteries so there's no point building. Pacifism if we want to lean Specialist, or Free Rel if we just ignore it completely.

Traits:
AGG(4) - no changes, need to build Barracks & Drydocks are 1tech away.
CHM(3) - no Monuments available, so only +1Happy*
CRE(0) - move along
EXP(2) - cheap buildings turn into cheaper Settlers and add to the cheap Workers
FIN(1) - is still amazing (if you're running an economy)
IMP(4) - Settlers Settlers Settlers
IND(1) - Wonders(?), Forges = cheaper Settler
ORG(5) - -costs, cheap Settlers, cheap Factory & Courthouse ... still great
PHI(4) - doubled GPPs have immediate impact; doubled Unis maybe less so
PRO(0) - oh good
SPI(4) - no Anarchy is strong assuming many civics changes, which probably can be justified in at least 2 columns. Inertia in play makes this worse.

* no Monuments available means there's no cheap way to pop borders unless we run Caste and use an Artist - fake edit: except we can direct build Culture so of course I'm an idiot.

Leader and Civilization Pairings: (First impressions)
Asoka (Spi/Org) of Aztec - holy synergistic traits with UB, Batman!
Augustus Caesar (Ind/Imp) of Rome - I think the only selling point of this combo is the potential to be the only IND; not excited
Boudica (Agg/Chm) of Russia -
Brennus (Chm/Spi) of the Vikings - see Pitboss30
Darius (Fin/Org) of the Dutch - if you reach this Era with this combo in a standard game you're probably , but does it get going from a standing start?
Fredrick (Phi/Org) of the Holy Roman Empire - two "strong" traits & (synergistic) UB
Gandhi (Phi/Spi) of the Khmer - Free Baray in each city could make this a power combo
Genghis Khan (Imp/Agg) of the USA - USA still sucks in Base BTS. It's an aggressive combo, but if you want aggressive why not Russia!?
Hammurabi (Agg/Org) of England - The Redcoats are coming, the Redcoats are coming!
Joao (Imp/Exp) of Carthage - Cheap Settlers with a capital "CHEA", also Workers; also Cothons
Julius Caesar (Imp/Org) of Japan - fast expansion at low cost + Shale Plants
Lincoln (Chm/Phi) of the Mongols - I guess you could pump Cavs and run someone over? don't see much else going for it.
Montezuma (Agg/Spi) of Germany - Panzers (if you can get to them)
Peter (Exp/Phi) of India - fast Fast Workers & PHI

From the list these jumped out:
Sac Altar whip-gasms (if engaged enough to take advantage of SPI)
Cossack madness
Free Barays with a fine trait pairing
Extra-cheap settlers w/Joao
JC for excellent traits & Shale Plants (+missed out on PB29)
Not played with Fast Workers before (also: this is Base BTS)

Tentative first-pick as of right now if you pushed me to it and I'll probably change my mind soon anyway: Gandhi (Phi/Spi) of the Khmer

Map: Custom-built, skewed towards balance. ~160 tiles a player, a reasonable water presence.

7 players = ~1,120 tile
"a reasonable water presence" = 60-70% land? = 1600 - 1850 total tiles
40x40 to 43x43 tile squares
Assume 25tiles to reach any point on the map.

Summary - very unlikely to be able to conquer your way to victory without also building an economy capable of researching new techs. AKA: "aha, I have half the map but you have Tanks & Bombers & Destroyers"

OK, better post this stream of consciousness and get back to work.... :

[Elum]

Interesting thoughts, as you say Asoka/Aztec could be amazing and I would on board with some planning. Given your summary I agree that map size determines that tech is important and add that the scouting phase will be all kinds of fun with rifles and explorers bushwhacking each other. High tech costs mean that whilst eventual tech is important you are left open to being rushed by someone doubling down.

To compare a traditional opening where you spam cities and cottage the cap and initial cities to a what may play out here, I wonder how fast we will go broke? More pop means more pay back from cities quickly, being forced to invest hammers into buildings upfront slows expansion, having all the tech we strictly "need" moves emphasis away from tech. On stream of conscious second thoughts Asoka will be the slowest opener, and with cities being a net positive from the outset (I think) that is significant.

I made a basic sandbox and had a little play last night, cities grow fast with 3 pop and a granary, I see why Brick gave gems and gold at the start. It won't have the right leader and civ but it's nice to have a play around, I'll post it in a couple hours.

[Elum]

It's not great but you can get a feel. Sandbox

[OT4E]

IND(1) - Wonders(?), Forges = cheaper Settler

You have forges in all cities.