[Spoilers] DZ'CH is apparently a catchy name

[Donovan Zoi]

(no State Property or Enviro this game)

Just so you know, these civics are still available, you just have to research their techs as normal.

Makes sense, thanks!

[Cheater Hater]

Here are my Civics thoughts. I'll have to post more tomorrow.

Government - Representation

This is a no-brainer, I feel. The +3 will cover our whole empire for quite awhile due to the expensive Settlers, and the +3 beakers will also be important in the early game, especially when paired with Merc. I think a Scientist for an Academy would be the way to go (we could get one quick!) unless you want to try for Great Engineers to address our Settler dilemma.

Legal - Bureaucracy

I think Legal is pretty nailed down too -- Free Speech and Nationhood won't really help us too much as a fledgling civ, while Vassalage will not play into our early domestic plans. So may as well tall-build our capital and get the most benefit out of it.

Labor - Serfdom

I agree with greenline that Serfdom is the way to go here, as it will give our workers an extra jump on things (2 turn chops, 3 turn Cottages etc). Slavery will work against our tall build strategy in the early game, though it will be worth swapping into once our cities have matured enough to recover growth quickly. Caste System is a short term start if we wanted to build an Academy quickly, but not worth it if we go with a GE start.

Economy - Mercantilism

As a PHI civ, I think we are locked into this one for the game, as the only other choice is Free Market (no State Property or Enviro this game). But never say never, as we would need to see how Corps play out.

EDIT: If I am not mistaken, we will only have the option for a GE or a GM for the free specialist if we do not go into Caste, since Forges and Markets are defaults. So that makes the GE play even more desirable.

Religion - Pacifism

I think this may be better than the 10% from Free Religion, since our specialists would then triple their GP points instead of just doubling with PHI. This really has me liking a GE play as an opener more and more to get a 4th city, then over to a GS for an Academy, and after that back to GE's once we get some buildings that allow us to stack more than one. Once again this synergizes with the domestic opening, along with two other Civics (Rep and Merc). A close second is Organized Religion, to get us the Missionaries we need to make the most of this civic.


First Tech

For the strongest opening, I really think we need to go Steam Power first, perhaps followed by Steel. Then it's possible to get Railroad next if we want but let's not get ahead of ourselves. In a nutshell, Steam Power paired with Serfdom gets us 1-turn roads and 2-turn mines, meaning we don't have to invest too heavily in FWs. Or maybe we do, but once again this move supports the tall city strategy.

So, what do you think? I think these moves make the most of PHI, and ORG will absorb a good part of the civics costs in a populous empire. Besides that, we fully optimize our UU from fast to blazin'! We get to build a Levee sooner in our Bureau capital too.

Let me know anything I may be missing here.

There are three main problems with Pacifism:
1. It requires a religion to do anything, so it doesn't do anything for the first couple turns of the game, and then requires another turn of anarchy past the first turn. If we're going to switch into a relgion, I'd rather do so during our first golden age (which could be as soon as Taj Mahal if you want to try for it--get an early GE, rush Taj, swap into Caste+Pacifism, and push out a ton of Great People).
2. We need the religion in the city to do so--that means either we need to get lucky on where the religion is founded (or delay the third city), get lucky on natural spread, or spend a ton of hammers on the Monastery plus some Missionaries. Granted, I want the Monastery before SM just to have the option, but I'd rather not force it.
3. Pacifism can get expensive--I don't know where the break-even point of Pacifism vs various civic costs is (presumably someone's done so for vanilla BTS), but presumably we'd hit it quickly. Granted, it isn't quite as bad as it would have if we were ORG (you accidentally said we were ), but I want to see the math first.

[Donovan Zoi]

Man, I have got to stop posting at 3am!

Duly noted on Pacifism. It was my shakiest argument of the 5 civics to be sure, but all your points make sense. It probably makes sense to stay in Free Religion then for the lowest upkeep, and evaluate our choices one we grow a bit.

Turn 17 is way to early to build Taj, I think, so what did you think of using them to build Settlers? Would this be too wasteful?

[greenline]

The fastest we could get Sci Method by throwing all of our efforts to research early (which we probably won't do) would still be around 15 turns without any bulbing, so there's plenty of time to build a monastary.

In a nutshell, Steam Power paired with Serfdom gets us 1-turn roads and 2-turn mines, meaning we don't have to invest too heavily in FWs.

That is indeed powerful, but I don't think building extra workers will be that bad since we have EXP. I'm more tempted by Biology or beelining Assembly Line but that's just me. Scratch that, Steam Power is a pre req for Assembly Line. Steam Power is good.

Turn 17 is way to early to build Taj, I think, so what did you think of using them to build Settlers? Would this be too wasteful?

I'm not seeing the benefits to building settlers this early since they cost 300 something hammers and you're holding each city at size 3 until they finish. Would be better to wait for either a golden age to swap to UniSuff so we can cash rush them, or until we have enough production in some cities to build them manually.

One other thing to consider is that we can lumbermill forests from the get go. At the cap we should probably chop everything for towns, but I think other cities might benefit from having some lumbermills instead of chopping them for workshops or farms. Railroaded lumbermills provide nearly as much production as caste workshops (and we don't know if we'll be using caste in the future), and the health bonus from forests is significant in the factory era.

[Donovan Zoi]

'm not seeing the benefits to building settlers this early since they cost 300 something hammers and you're holding each city at size 3 until they finish. Would be better to wait for either a golden age to swap to UniSuff so we can cash rush them, or until we have enough production in some cities to build them manually.

Actually in this case it would be to rush a Settler or two early with GEs, so no queue time would be wasted on them and a city can still grow. I'm not sure if that is what we want to do with our early GE's but that can certainly help us gain a territory advantage for at least the 4th city. I'd also like more feedback on whether it is worth it to use GE's for this purpose.

One other thing to consider is that we can lumbermill forests from the get go. At the cap we should probably chop everything for towns, but I think other cities might benefit from having some lumbermills instead of chopping them for workshops or farms. Railroaded lumbermills provide nearly as much production as caste workshops (and we don't know if we'll be using caste in the future), and the health bonus from forests is significant in the factory era.

I'll have to look at this idea but it seems like a great plan. One of the forests north of our stack looks to be on tundra so we will want to LM that one for sure, as it becomes pretty useless otherwise.

[Cheater Hater]

So are we solidified on everything we need to care about on T0? Settle in place, revolt to Rep/Bur/Serf/Merc/FR, move one Settler north and one south, cottage the FP, start towards Steam Power? If so, I can make the first move in a bit.

[greenline]

Don't forget to move the explorers

Actually in this case it would be to rush a Settler or two early with GEs, so no queue time would be wasted on them and a city can still grow. I'm not sure if that is what we want to do with our early GE's but that can certainly help us gain a territory advantage for at least the 4th city. I'd also like more feedback on whether it is worth it to use GE's for this purpose.

My issue with that is you get the most value out of GE's the more cities and tiles you're working. Apart from boosting our GPP we won't get too much out of a GE from three cities. Might be better to bite the anarchy from going from Rep to UniSuff unless there's a plan for putting the extra great people points to good use. Remember that we don't have a National Epic city right now.

[Donovan Zoi]

So are we solidified on everything we need to care about on T0? Settle in place, revolt to Rep/Bur/Serf/Merc/FR, move one Settler north and one south, cottage the FP, start towards Steam Power? If so, I can make the first move in a bit.

Yes, that sounds good. Maybe before doing so, check the amount of anarchy turns the revolt will bring, but I can't see any number that would sway us from altering this opening roster of civics. It would have to be 2 turns right?

My issue with that is you get the most value out of GE's the more cities and tiles you're working. Apart from boosting our GPP we won't get too much out of a GE from three cities. Might be better to bite the anarchy from going from Rep to UniSuff unless there's a plan for putting the extra great people points to good use. Remember that we don't have a National Epic city right now.

Sorry GE stands for Great Engineers, do you think I meant Golden Ages? I'll try to cut down on the abbreviations when possible to be more clear.

[greenline]

You can only rush buildings with Great Engineers, not units.

[Donovan Zoi]

You can only rush buildings with Great Engineers, not units.

Another mystery* solved, thanks. Best to hold it for Taj then.

I am sure the lurker thread is already having a ball with some of my answers/ideas this time, but I don't mind looking foolish on the fundamentals when spitballing a path to victory. At some point, one of my schemes is going to pay off.

*Well, for me at least!