[SPOILERS] scooter's Industrial Revolution

[rho21]

You could connect the oil in advance by putting a fort on the tile, if the wasted worker turns are worth the faster destroyers.

[BRickAstley]

Yeah, can't gift the unit. And it unfortunately isn't a small deal because like you said that gift is intended to carry a lot of meaning, which is what the rule is specifically there for. I'll need to reload to have you replay this last turn.

[scooter]

Well it sounds like I really screwed that turn up in two different ways. Fantastic. Sorry, I should have remembered that rule, but I believe this is the first game I've ever played where this type of thing wasn't allowed, so that's my bad excuse.

Minor note: the game did bounce me out mid-turn, and I had to log back in and complete the turn. This means the save we're reloading to is from mid-turn. I believe I didn't do the unit gift until after logging in the second time, but I'm not going to know until I get home tonight. So if we reload to my login and the gift has already happened, we may have to back it up to REM's login. Unfortunately, he was in-game for his turn for a whopping 2 1/2 hours (almost certainly planning the logistics of an invasion), and that likely sounds like an absolute nightmare for him.

Although now that I'm looking at the screenshots, I'm almost positive we're good. I take the last two screenshots right before I log out, and the timestamp for those is just two minutes after I did the unit gift, so that was almost certainly one of the last things I did. So... I think we're good?

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I'm fine with moving some of our units into a threatening posture; let's not actually declare war on anyone without having a chance to discuss it though, OK? Two other quick comments:

Oh yeah, we aren't even really in position to declare next turn either.

That said, if he jumps on pindicator... do we have any other choice?

* We don't have oil connected so those frigates aren't going to auto-upgrade to destroyers, right? Since we're likely going to have to replay this turn, let's avoid building a bunch of largely useless wooden ships.

I guess the question is whether it's worthwhile to fort that oil to get them out 1T sooner rather than waiting until next turn to build a well.

[antisocialmunky]

Have you thought about just offering a Defensive Pact to Pindicator and BGN at this point? I mean, if the goal is to stop REM from gaining more territory, it would be the most overt way of getting him to back off short term wouldn't it? Its not like Dreylin can even intervene for another 8-9 turns. Do you really think he's going to wait that long to tear through pindicator?

*was originally edited for pushy tone*

[scooter]

Have you thought about just offering a Defensive Pact to Pindicator and BGN at this point? I mean, if the goal is to stop REM from gaining more territory, it would be the most overt way of getting him to back off short term wouldn't it? Its not like Dreylin can even intervene for another 8-9 turns. Do you really think he's going to wait that long to tear through pindicator?

I'd just really like to have control over when a declaration happens. We can create the same affect (of aligning ourselves with others) via diplo window, and REM can easily deduce our intentions based on watching our boat movement with his airships. I dunno, I just don't see an upside to counteract the downside of taking the timing of a declaration out of our hands.

[Sullla]

Agreed. I also want to make clear that we do not want to fight REM right now if at all possible. His military is much bigger and he has the tech edge. I see this as a deterrent more than anything else.

If we do decide to attack, then at the very least let REM get his army stuck in hostile territory before declaring. Let's try to hold off for the 3 turns we need to build some modern ships, research Physics, and get airships in the sky. Fighting REM right now with zero air power is suicide IMO.

[scooter]

Agreed. I also want to make clear that we do not want to fight REM right now if at all possible. His military is much bigger and he has the tech edge. I see this as a deterrent more than anything else.

If we do decide to attack, then at the very least let REM get his army stuck in hostile territory before declaring. Let's try to hold off for the 3 turns we need to build some modern ships, research Physics, and get airships in the sky. Fighting REM right now with zero air power is suicide IMO.

We certainly don't want to fight him 1v1, but if he's already at war with pindicator and BGN (which he would be if he declared on either of them), I think we definitely want to join in a limited way. At worst, it'll keep him from adding more land. At best, it may be the opportunity we were just hoping would fall into our lap. For example, if he invades pindicator, I envision something like this:

1) Position a few boats on the northern edge of this lake that'll force him to cover his cities on the coast. If he fails to, we burn a city.

2) Position the units from southern boats in pindicator's land. Using his rails and cultural defenses as protection, we stay out of his reach but keep him within ours and prevent him from advancing. If he screws up, we kill a bunch of his units.

Am I crazy?

I did replay the turn. Most of the worker turns were already spoken for, so no oil until next turn. So I got rid of the Frigate builds. I mostly stuck with Plan A, but I did swap Spinning Jenny from research to wealth just this turn. It produced a 100g surplus, which I only did so we had a little more of a buffer for a unit upgrade if it turns out to be necessary.



Sadly, we lost this tile on turn roll, and we won't get it back anytime soon. I did work the workshop and build culture, but his cultural lead over us grew, so he was surely doing the same thing.

On the bright side, Oxford had a very nice boost.

[Sullla]

Hey scooter! I'm off on the road but did manage to connect to the game and look around. My little tablet laptop just abut exploded while I was running Civ4 and also typing up the worker micro in Google docs. Did get it done though I can't promise I'll have time every turn.

Some thoughts:

* I still don't want us to go to war unless we feel like we absolutely have to do so. We've got a nice economy up and running now, to the point where oil-based ships just arrived, airships are very close, and panzers aren't far off. I would hate to see us throw our game away with an ill-advised war declaration if we can avoid it. We will be so much stronger in another 5 turns time, when we have destroyers + airships ready to go. I think we should move when we're ready, not when it's convenient for other teams.

Remember in the last big war how Dreylin looked to be running away with things, and then REM and our team hit him mid-conquest, catching Dreylin overextended? We could probably do the same thing here. If REM is also looking to run away with things, Dreylin will also be more likely to re-enter the same war when their forced peace runs out. Anyway, I would continue to council delay until we're ready to act, and I don't think that this is the proper turn. I think the pindicator/BGN pair can hold for a few turns, and then our team (and Dreylin?) could come in with the big hammer. Just my 2 cents on this, but I don't like our odds trying to fight unless the main chunk of REM forces are already off in enemy territory. I do not think that's the case right now.

* Because I can't queue up destroyers yet, a lot of cities are on Wealth/Research builds. It's up to you how many to change over to destroyers. (I don't think we need transports, 6 move galleons are fine for moving units around. Just need those destroyers.) I would really like to knock out Physics in 2 turns of research if at all possible though. We can definitely do it with some Wealth and Research builds. Getting a round of airships built ASAP would make everything oh so much safer for us.

* GNP is freaking amazing with the current placeholder Wealth/Research builds. We're at about 1600 modified beakers/turn right now at break-even rate. If we could somehow keep that up, panzers would be very close. Unfortunately we can't keep it up since we need to build an army too. Stupid REM, stopping us from playing in our economic sandbox.

* Pindicator offered us a defensive pact, while I declined for the reasons we've already discussed.

* I couldn't remember the number of worker turns needed to build a well. I have 4 workers assigned to the oil this turn, so I would move them first and feel free to grab some more workers if we come up short on the labor.

* I think we should keep fighting the cultural battle at Zipper. It will take forever to build the factory anyway, and I think we have a decent chance at getting to 100 culture first, which is useful for defensive purposes if nothing else. Feel free to veto if you prefer.

You have the main calls here since I'm out on the road. Good luck!

[scooter]

Hey scooter! I'm off on the road but did manage to connect to the game and look around. My little tablet laptop just abut exploded while I was running Civ4 and also typing up the worker micro in Google docs. Did get it done though I can't promise I'll have time every turn.

Oh yeah no worries if you can't get to it. We don't exactly have tons of worker actions left to do anyway.

* I still don't want us to go to war unless we feel like we absolutely have to do so.

I definitely don't want war right now - we're nowhere near ready.

My primary goal here is to dissuade REM from even attacking pindicator in the first place. I think it's heavily in our interests for pindicator to survive a bit longer. If REM gobbles him up before we get to Industralism, it's game over anyway. Obviously waiting longer to be in a conflict is way better for us, but I'd like to put a little bit of fear in REM if that's even possible. It may not be - it's not exactly a terrifying amount of units we have in this area, but it's the best we can do. I'm hoping it results in him playing it safe and backing off.

Basically, he has to make a decision right now. Invading pindicator is an obviously good choice. Invading pindicator, triggering war with BGN, and possibly triggering war with us as a result? That's questionable. It may still be worthwhile for him, but he may also take the foot off the gas and play conservatively since he's got the lead anyway. If he does back off, I think that would be a real win for us. That's my rationale for all this. Hopefully it doesn't backfire.

Side note: it's really weird rushing to pindicator's defense just so that we can preserve our ability to kill him later instead . I mean, I'm pretty sure it's the right thing to do, but it still feels strange.

On to the turn.

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Turn 332

We need to play before REM in case a declaration becomes necessary because pindicator and BGN are also playing before him. No interest in yet another 3-way split, so playing earlier it is.



Used pindicator's rail network to see what kind of defenses he's got. He's got a Destroyer but not much else. He looks woefully under-prepared.



This is the reason I'm concerned. REM could conquer this in less than 5T if he rushed. I'm honestly not quite following his unit placement strategy here. Then again, he did play this turn in 6 minutes, so there may not be one.



REM had a mini-stack in just the right spot for him. He can hit both of pindicator's cities, but he can also hit Photography from here. I went ahead and reinforced it with a couple more Infantry just in case. Anyway, as planned I staged things in the north as if I'm going to hit Yaks.



It'll be very easy for him to cover this, but I'm hoping it'll tie down a few land units and/or boats. Maybe it'll make him think twice about sending those two Galleons (presumably full of units) down to wreck pindicator? He can definitely kill off an Ironclad with that Destroyer if he wants, but I doubt that's worthwhile to him.



In the south I decided to set things up to do one of two things:

1) Threaten Ark to make it a far less attractive target for REM.
2) I can move the Galleons into Kahelvksy and units can use the rails in pindicator's land.

I think REM should see this with his airships. Whether or not it'll change anything for him is another question. I did move the ironclad up another tile after taking this shot.



I took another stab at the Dreylin thing - this time with no rulebreaking! I moved the medic unit to this tile and left him there. Maybe somehow that'll make a difference? Hopefully he doesn't just think I'm scouting Geese for an attack . I can see it anyway thanks to Barbed Wire, but I wonder if he's noticed that.



Well we're pretty close to tops in land area? I'd like our chances against REM a lot better if he didn't have a couple crucial techs in hand over us.



I only changed two builds - Haber and Induction Coil to Destroyers. They can both 1-turn them this turn, so I went for it.

Unfortunately the oil hookup (Well takes 6T to build FYI) added unhealth to all our cities, putting a few of them to food deficits. Seems like we need to build a few Grocers, but I didn't do it this turn. I really want to get Physics next turn, so I banked as many beakers as we can, and then I figure next turn we can play around with things and figure out how many cities can afford to burn a turn on Grocers. Grocers would be an instant +3F in several cities, and that'll go up to +4 if we can get our hands on a Sugar.

[Sullla]

OK, looks good for right now. I can only check this game about once per day right now, so please do let me know if REM would declare war on us or some little detail like that takes place.

One other little metagaming thought that scooter has probably already had. We talked about how Dreylin doesn't have a compelling reason to declare war on us, as it would be #3 fighting #2, which would hand the game over to REM. However, by that same logic, REM has every reason to take a shot at us if he thinks he can get away with it. That's #1 smacking down #2, and if he could dish out heavy damage in a hurry, the game may also be over right there. I'm hesitant to poke the bear too much for this very reason - what's to say that REM doesn't think, "screw that defensive pact, I'll just attack scooter instead." We need to be careful with unit positioning such that REM doesn't just alpha strike us and get in a huge blow before we can react.

Otherwise, things look good to me from that I can see. Let's get to Physics ASAP, get some airships into the skies, and re-evaluate from there.