As a French person I feel like it's my duty to explain strikes to you. - AdrienIer

Create an account  

 
RB Pitboss #2 [SPOILERS] - Speaker and Sullla

Kristian95 Wrote:it'll be interesting to see what you do with Thebes, considering what a crappy site you think it is built in wink

Well, only one weak food bonus, but mostly grassland with a river, so while it would be a poor choice to settle while other ones are available, now that they have it it should be moderately useful.
Reply

Sorry if you were wanting more bloodshed, but I really do believe this was the best move for us to make. Let's go through the full rationale here.

First of all, you have to keep the game settings in mind. This is a "No Tech Trading" game - and thank goodness it is, or else we would have died in the big dogpile earlier. Under these settings technology is king, even more so than in a normal game. If you fall behind in military tech, you're going to die, and that's all there is to it. Smaller and backwards teams will get crushed mercilessly in the long run. There's no riding on the coattails of others, like you saw in the Pitboss #1 game where certain teams contributed virtually nothing while staying fully caught up with new techs by their alliance mates. Everyone has to stand on their own feet in this game.

That's why Speaker and I were under no real compulsion to destroy Jowy here. Where's the rush? He lost half his cities (including what I would consider his best two, Sparta and Argos) and has the worst economy in the game. Remember, Jowy focused his research on military techs: he teched Math and Construction to the detriment of other stuff. That means no Monarchy, no Currency, no Code of Laws, no Calendar, and so on. It's going to take him absolutely ages to tech anything; if we wait 50 turns and fight again, we should have a major technological and production edge. It all snowballs in this game, remember.

Now if this had been a tech trading game, we absolutely would have pushed on and tried to eliminate Jowy now, before he could be gifted up to tech parity by his buddies. But that's just not needed for this game... because Jowy's not the main danger anymore. We wanted to neutralize him, and we did by taking out half his empire. The real danger is posed by Kathlete and Whosit and slaze, who have been building and teching merrily along for the last 25 turns while we were in a death struggle. Wasting our time and energy fighting with a third-rate backwater civ like Jowy's would not be a good play here. We've gotta tech and build up to keep pace with those other teams out in the fog! nod

I also got the sense from some of the posters that we were being nice or magnanimous to Jowy by making this peace offer. Ummm, not in the least, although if it came out seeming that way, we appreciate it. Look at what we gained by this conflict:

* We were gifted two free cities (and you'll see why that was important when I post the pictures in a second).
* We lost ZERO units on the attack. Not even one... and we gained some valuable extra XP too.
* We are going to poach that Sparta location for ourselves. Oh yes, you better believe it! lol

So that's three cities, two of them quality, taken with absolutely no losses to ourselves. What would be the point of fighting further? Yeah, we could probably kill Jowy's big stack, but only by losing all our cats. Why would we want to do that? Let's keep our units to live and fight another day, so our cities can build infrastructure now rather than more units.

You also have to remember, we pretty much cleaned house to make this attack. We left NOTHING behind; Fredericksburg had 1 archer and 1 skirmisher defending it. Now Jowy didn't know that, but I had a fear lurking in the back of my mind that Jowy would "sacrifice" himself and just try to do as much damage to our team as possible to help out his alliance mates. And he could have done some real damage with that stack, even if it was just forcing another round of emergency whipping. In diplomacy, you never want to force the other guy into an impossible situation. Always give them an "out" of some kind, so they can come away feeling at least somewhat good. We did that deliberately with Jowy, and I'm very happy with the outcome.

Never force your enemy into a situation with no escape and no way out, because they'll fight like demons. (There's a reason why we say "remember the Alamo" in my country.) Hell, even the pathetic Templars put up an impressive fight when they had no way out. Believe me, we wanted to avoid that with Jowy!

I think I'd better continue this in a second post, this is getting long...
Follow Sullla: Website | YouTube | Livestream | Twitter | Discord
Reply

Interesting insight into no tech trading. smile

Agreed good choice.
Reply

Don't get me wrong...taking peace was the right move for all the reasons stated. I just wanted to make it clear the ghosts of Byzantine are not yet sated!

Darrell
Reply

Signing the Treaty of Athens:

[Image: RBPB2-205s.jpg]

I imagine that if this were real-life, one of our Great Generals would have ironed things out with Jowy at the negotiating table in his capital. I can think of a couple of examples in history where an enemy army in the capital city forced some humiliating peace treaties. We did find out some interesting tidbits this turn, from my chatting with Jowy and Speaker talking briefly with Whosit and Nakor:

* Dantski rejected an NAP renewal with Nakor; their current deal ends on Turn 135. Very interesting - looks like a surefire attack will be coming there. Poor Dantski, not very subtle with his attacks! He shouldn't have locked himself into those long NAP deals though, his mistake.

* Jowy told me that Dantski came up with the whole gangpile alliance against us. Pretty interesting if true. Jowy was obviously trying to turn us against Dantski, and I pretended to go along with him, but I think that ship has sailed. We're pretty committed to Dantski now (who makes a great ally because his GNP sucks).

* Jowy hates Dantski. He specifically used the word "betrayal" when discussing our peace treaty, and blames Dantski for the attack failing. Not true, but whatever, I wasn't going to dispel that notion. Jowy also asked if Dantski gifted us axes, and I answered honestly that he did. These guys really want revenge on him - I'd watch my back if I were Dantski!

* Everyone (Whosit, Nakor, Jowy) were all super nice to us. They are all clearly terrified of our military, haha. lol We'll play nice with everyone for now, but eventually it's gonna be bigtime payback for all involved. Jowy just got the first dose! hammer

Here's the new situation with the city gifting:

[Image: RBPB2-206s.jpg]

Speaker, I mostly just moved units into cities for Hereditary Rule MP purposes and/or into our territory to avoid unit support costs. We have plenty of time to set up our defenses the way we want them, even before the mandatory 10 turns of peace are up (much less the 28-turn NAP we signed).

"City 1" is where we will replace Sparta, one tile south because of the Athens borders. It sucks to move off the coast (and we could use more naval bases!) but that spot still has triple food bonuses (sheep, rice, deer) along with multiple hill tiles and oodles of grassland river tiles. Will make for a powerful hybrid city along the Sparta or Chancellorsville model. The plan is to whip the settler under production at Chancellorsville (which we started last turn - yes, we're always planning ahead!) and do some worker road-building which will allow us to replant the city on Turn 124. And we'll do it right at the start of the turn too, so unless Jowy has a settler ready to go next turn (and I don't see how that's possible, since Athens isn't even large enough to whip a settler, and Corinth is too far away) we're a lock to land that site. Pretty cool, eh? [Image: biggrin.gif]

Let's look at the new cities:

[Image: RBPB2-207s.jpg]
Argos I see as our new barracks city in the east. With the stone + iron and few river tiles, I don't see the new to go commerce here. Instead, let's farm the few river tiles we do have (and spread irrigation to more grassland tiles post-Civil Service) and emphasize shields here. I have the city set to a stables, but that's basically a placeholder. What we really want is a Forge, which we'll chop out when Metal Casting finishes researching. (Thanks for leaving us those forests, Jowy!) We can very easily get to 16 shields/turn here, which becomes 20/turn with a forge in place... very strong production at this stage of the game. Get a stables here too and we're cranking out 2.5 turn horse archers. Powerful stuff. (Alternately, let's get Judaism in here and build some 2t missionaries. That would really help some of our other cities develop.)

Other points of interest: because the city was gifted and not captured, Argos retained all of its buildings, including the monument!!! No need to get culture in here, it'll pop on its own in 10 turns. Very nice. Not as good: maintenance costs are 10gpt! cry The Toroidal map is going to force our hand and send us to Code of Laws next after Metal Casting. We're going to need those courthouses up and running. The good news is that forge + Organized Religion followed by courthouses, markets, etc. is actually a pretty good economic development path!

[Image: RBPB2-208s.jpg]

Thebes is a more interesting project. Now this is not a good city, but we can make it productive with some elbow grease. (I have 4 of our 7 workers assigned here, because it needs serious attention. And yes, we'll need more workers soon too! After we finish this crop of settlers though.) I thought it over, and I see Thebes turning into a commerce city. It just isn't strong enough to serve as a military producer; on the other hand, the sole redeeming quality of this location is its oodles of grassland river tiles. So the best plan I can see is to farm some of grassland tiles, get up to +4 or better +5 food/turn, and then cottage everything else in sight. I know it doesn't look like it, but this will actually be a backline city once Sparta's replacement is founded, so it will be relatively safe to build cottages.

Jowy managed this city awfully... He mostly worked unimproved grassland forests. Ugh! That's really, really bad. smoke And I know this was a frontline city, but he could have done some farming and mining to the north/east. Anyway, the first thing we have to do is get some farms down to increase the food per turn. I couldn't do that this turn, but what I could do was replace one of Chancellorsville's cottages and assign it to Thebes (since Chance has enough improved tiles right now) to get rid of one of those horrid grassland forests. On the next two turns, I plan to add farms on the two "F" tiles, which will get the city up to +4 food/turn. Next, the workers will chop the jungle on the sugar tile, then cottage it to create a 3/0/1 tile, as good as a grassland river farm, so it can work that tile until we research Calendar down the road. That would get the city to something like this:

Center tile 2/1/1
Sugar tile 3/0/1
Grassland farm 3/0/1
Grassland farm 3/0/1
Total: +5 food per turn

Then start chopping the forests (to complete the library, very nice) and just add cottages as it grows. With that granary already in place, this city won't totally suck, and will grow decently. Give us 10 turns, and we'll turn this into a solid productive city. nod

And the overall Demographic view:

[Image: RBPB2-209s.jpg]

Our economy is going to be down for the immediate future, so expect the GNP number not to be super-impressive. But now it's a "good" low GNP, caused by expansion and maintenance costs rather than losing cities and whipping constantly. Note that our army is still kinda large... lol We won't have to add much there, and can concentrate on our infrastructure push. We'll actually go down, when we gift those borrowed units from Dantski back.

I'm more concerned with the Food and Production graphs. We were starting to fall behind badly there, stuck at 5 cities while our rivals raced out to 7 and 8. That spelled a slow death if we didn't do something! But now we're back on the right track, with 7 cities now and plans to expand as far as 10 in the next dozen or so turns. We should retake the food lead in due course, and that will pull along our economy with it.

Overall, it was a *VERY* good pair of turns for us here. We can declare the misnamed "Operation Krondor" a success!
Follow Sullla: Website | YouTube | Livestream | Twitter | Discord
Reply

Sullla Wrote:Overall, it was a *VERY* good pair of turns for us here. We can declare the misnamed "Operation Krondor" a success!
Absolutely, congratulations!

The top GNP is 187!? Any idea who that is?

Is that a galley scouting offshore city locations you have NW of Hampton Roads? Is it empty?
I have to run.
Reply

Are you going to rename the cities you "captured"?
Reply

Good work on the peace treaty. I'm surprised you didn't capture/raze Athens before offering peace, but whatever. Is resettling Sparta part of your treaty, or are you just confident you can get there? Also, what were your plans with the slow stack if Jowy didn't accept peace?

And I vote you rename Sparta to Cold Harbor
Reply

Axiis Wrote:Good work on the peace treaty. I'm surprised you didn't capture/raze Athens before offering peace, but whatever. Is resettling Sparta part of your treaty, or are you just confident you can get there? Also, what were your plans with the slow stack if Jowy didn't accept peace?

And I vote you rename Sparta to Cold Harbor

Rather ironic, given the (successful) attempt to win this war without any "Grant in 1864"-style victories...
Reply

And Argos would be the better site for that, anyway. It's where the meat-grinder would've taken place if it wasn't for Jowy's conditional surrender.
Reply



Forum Jump: