(August 15th, 2016, 05:57)ReallyEvilMuffin Wrote: Trying to understand this mod a bit. How dense does settling usually end up? I get the impression that cities are a lot more expensive to make. Like how many cities with this start would you expect to be at at t50 and t100? Wish I'd chosen to despite someone now...
Well I don't know whether you've asked the right person, as I generally just muddle around and see what works, but I'll see what I can do. As far as settling patterns go, there's not much difference here, although Culture is harder to come by since Monuments are twice as expensive as base CIV and Religions are a lot farther off. In fact, most things are more expensive, farther off, and/or have a lower payout. Granaries are 2x the cost and only store 20% of the bin size ... so nobody builds them. Few buildings are build early. Techs are much more expensive early as well; even on quick it'll take ~8t to research to a first-row tech, and ~14t for a second-row, so you see why the Oasis is a big deal and Plains Incense is an EitB player's best friend.
That's why I think that starting with Agriculture is the way to go here; that's a big early acceleration towards getting the Incense (& Silks) online ASAP to keep the techs flowing. Going that route and settling SW though does mean that early Settler builds are going to be mostly Food, so that does somewhat devalue EXP in the early game before you get some decent hammer tiles.
Oh, and early game while you're not building buildings, you will be building units because the Barbarians and Animals are a real threat - more powerful, more common and some with higher move than base CIV, so caution is required to avoid losing an early Settler or city.
You'd be welcome to stay around and transition to a ded if you like, but I'm hoping to update pretty well for this game. More thoughts on picks later, I think.
I might try that. I have only read opening thoughts on one or 2 other players thread and posted about a wish to play another FFH2 game in the lurker thread before much was actually said, so as long as I stay clear of advising on picks (I have no clue really anyway) I probably can start to dedlurk. I doubt I would be of help to anyone though
Are there any civs that are underpowered or definite no picks considering you think that the game will last a long time? Also does that civ that get a few super cities (kurioates?) get progressively more cities akin to drafting limit on map size?
My approach to civ picking in previous EitB PBEMs has typically been more focused on "Civs I feel like playing", than on "powerful Civs that are suited to the map"; this game I think I'm going to try and lean a bit more on the latter. In particular I want to focus on getting an early acceleration going; many of the recent games have been decided by who got to key tech levels first and then applied that to a win.
So here are some rambling thoughts and potential picks:
* Before the game I'd been set on first-picking Jonas to try to get a go at the Clan game, but I tried a test run over the weekend and it was just so slow! No starting tech plus the drag of BAR's -10% beakers just made me miserable. I still might go for this, but it's a lot less default in my mind because of the hole you have to dig through before accelerating out with the Warrens.
* Agriculture Civ: I said this before, but IMO the Red site above just screams for getting to Calendar ASAP then use the Incense & Silks to power through the early techs to build up a lead. These are:
* Hippus: on a tailored map, the guaranteed Horse is not worth the loss of the Palace Mana, but they have additional mobility on their mounted units and an exceedingly good worldspell in Warcry. A big game puts me off Tasunke (AGG/RAI), but Rhoanna's EXP & FIN are very attractive. (Potential first-pick)
* Balseraph: who doesn't love the crazy clowns? Hero isn't great against humans, but their worldspell is also awesome (free 2x Golden Age, yum!). Leaders are Furia (CHA/RAI/BAR) - not suited to a big game - Keelyn (CRE/SUM/ING) who will grow in strength as the Arcane route gains power, and Perpentach (ARC/CHA/CRE/doesn't matter too much because of the INS). I'm always enticed by the potential of the Insane trait to guide you down a path (dead end?), but while Keelyn is more reliable, she doesn't have the same potential power. (I will have one in my picks, but not sure which or where)
* Kuriotates: Cardith is EXP/PHI, with Adaptive on the PHI. So grab Elder Councils and a couple of Great People and then switch PHI out for something else. Here EXP is more important for the later-game benefits as the megacities need the Granary/Harbour and the extra Health. The main problem I see here is dotmapping them into this pod; it's too big for one megacity, but putting two in will mean a lot of water tiles and/or overlap. I'll take another look at this, but it feels awkward.
* Svartalfar: Winter Elves suffer from the same issues as the Summer Elves, slow Workers made even slower by their desire to build improvements on Forests. Generally a slow starter, which is something I was looking to avoid. Having said that, the first improvements are going to be the resources, so the added Forest slowness won't factor immediately, and there seem to be a decent number of Forests to be expanded onto. But none of the trait pairings jump out at me either, so I think there's a low chance I select them.
Non-Agriculture starting techs: of the 3 others, the one that stands out is Crafting, since it is the most expensive and opens up the route to an early BW with associated chopping and Mining. Probably wouldn't research until after Agr-Cal, but saving the extra beakers on Crafting makes up somewhat for the slower access to Plantations. Crafting Civs are the two Dwarven civs and the Grigori:
* Khazad: I have a lot of fondness for the Khazad having played a couple of my early SP games with them as well as my first EitB PBEM. Strong leader options with IND/ORD/ING & AGG/FIN/ING, but I think these I'm going to discard because I just have no desire to play them right now. Also lack of access to Mages/Archmages may be too much of a millstone in the long game here.
* Luchuirp (the most misspelled civ): again, I played these in a recent PBEM - or should I say misplayed - but here I'm actually eager to give them another go (probably because I misplayed them). Golems are an interesting tradeoff having more raw power, but being unable to take promotions for themselves. Have the best Workers in Mud Golems - although they are not foodhammer units, so getting the first out generally takes a bit longer. I played Beeri (FIN/IND) last time, but am leaning to Garrim (ARC/FIN) for enhanced magic line in the longer game, even though IND is intriguing me with possibilities.
* Grigori: I don't think I've ever played them in SP, which I think would need to be done before taking them far into this game. Grigori can't adopt Religions, which is a big negative; in return they get access to customisable "Adventurers"(Heroes) via the GP counter and their worldspell resets the counter. Cassiel's traits are IND/PHI, so lending to GP generation. (Intriguing, but lack of experience is a negative, potential late pick?)
OK, so we're past the tech-based selection criteria, what other options are there that I'm looking at??
* Well, the obvious next to discuss is the Lanun. Techers extraordinaire through their unique Pirate Cove improvement, they rule the waves literally. The mapmaking instructions indicated that Lanun should not be all-powerful option and they're no banned, but my cursory estimate is that ~12 Coves could be fit in the visible water. Add in their worldspell, with it looking like most of the main cities are going to be coastal and you've a lot of potential to get ahead and stay ahead. Falamar (EXP/CHA) I think is the better reliable choice over Hanah's INS randomness. (potential high pick, but might not be worth it unless set first as someone else is likely to)
* Mahala (EXP/RAI/ING) of Doviello. From picks based on tech, to a pick with no tech; I nearly picked her for the Mastery start but ultimately opted against. Although she has no starting tech, unlike the Clan she is not BAR, so doesn't have the research penalty. EXP helps early game and then the RAI/ING combo make her a legitimate threat later game - particularly since Doviello are not restricted to upgrading in their own territory - that sniped Worker just grew into a fresh Warrior/Axe/whatever inside your borders! A decent worldspell to summon an instant army can backfire in expenses unless managed correctly, but can also turn the tide/tip the balance at a crucial time. And not having to build many of the unit-access buildings (esp. Training Yards & Mage Guilds) is a big boost. (I've been wanting to replay since beating Kragroth in the Duel League, and this could be a good mid-list pick)
* Averax the Cambion (AGG/EXP/BAR) of Sheaim. A BAR pick (but this time with tech to build Monuments!) but AGG/EXP is a very strong trait combination and of course he gets access to the Pyre Zombie for some early fun. Sheaim are an interesting Civ to try to take advantage of and I don't think anyone has really succeeded in doing so yet. (another potential dark-horse pick)
* Sidar: I'm intrigued to try the Wane mechanic, but as with the Grigori, I think that unfamiliarity is a mark against this pick. Potential for devastation with Divided Soul action....
* Calabim are powerful and I expect them to be represented, but are another civ I have no desire to play again at the moment. And there really aren't any other civs or trait combos that are calling out to me at the moment.
So, I'll digest and re-read this and see if I can settle on a pick order without second-guessing myself too much!
(August 15th, 2016, 15:56)ReallyEvilMuffin Wrote: I might try that. I have only read opening thoughts on one or 2 other players thread and posted about a wish to play another FFH2 game in the lurker thread before much was actually said, so as long as I stay clear of advising on picks (I have no clue really anyway) I probably can start to dedlurk. I doubt I would be of help to anyone though
Are there any civs that are underpowered or definite no picks considering you think that the game will last a long time? Also does that civ that get a few super cities (kurioates?) get progressively more cities akin to drafting limit on map size?
Well, have a wade through that wall of text and see if you have any questions. I skipped a few civs; some because they're generally underpowered (Ljosalfar/Elohim?) or boring (Bannor/Malakim), or I'm not feeling (Illians/Amurites). Amurites for example are a civ that powers up through the later game, but generally have problems getting there; the game might be going longer here, but they'll still tend to have those same issues.
And yes, Kurio's number of cities is tied to map size. Actually, I think this start would be a lot better for them if Multiplayer didn't restrict ou to building all the cities before putting down any Settlements. I think 1 megacity on this pod and a couple of Settlements to grab resources might work better here than trying to squeeze in 2.
You currently have a random leader set, but it is very easy to change:
1.) Put the save in your saves/Worldbuilder directory
2.) Open Windows Explorer, and go to your saves/Worldbuilder directory. Sort by date modified.
3.) Open Notepad (or your favorite text editor).
4.) Open EITB
5.) Go to Single Player -> Custom Game. Set number of players to 2, the difficulty to emperor, and select the leader you want. Other settings will not matter.
6.) Once the game loads, open the worldbuilder. Click on save, and choose a name like "eitb_simset.CivBeyondSwordWBSave" or whatever. Don't close the worldbuilder.
7.) Go back to windows explorer. Drag eitb_simset.CivBeyondSwordWBSave into notepad.
8.) Press Ctrl-F, and search for "BeginPlayer" (with no quotes). Copy from BeginPlayer to EndPlayer, like this.
9.) Now drag your sim file into notepad. Again find BeginPlayer and select to EndPlayer. This time, paste and save.
10.) Going back to the worldbuilder, select Load and choose your sim file.
11.) Once the game loads, go into the worldbuilder and set the correct starting tech for your civ. Alternatively, you can set it in notepad by doing a similar procedure as above but with BeginTeam/EndTeam.
Thanks again Joey for the WB file; it made for a much less painful & more accurate start to simming.
I spent a short while last night on the start; ran through 20+ turns with Rhoanna and maybe 10t with Perpentach and came to a couple of conclusions:
* Simming with Perpentach will be problematic; on my run I got a trait switch on t3 which kept CRE but gave me SPI so that the revolt to Agrarianism was free. So yeah, short of adding in Guybrush and Singing to tick the RNG and trying again and again, any sort of sim is going to be a lost cause as soon as the main game has an INS moment.
* Speaking of Agrarianism; I revolted ASAP in both runs, but thinking further I don't know that it's quite such an automatic thing. Barring the Corn, the other three Grains are on Plains and as with many EitB starts, hammers are scarcer than food in the very early game, so it may make sense to delay Agrarianism until we're working more tiles than just the resources. Of course it is still a free food on the Corn, but would take the turn of revolt.
* Starting with Agriculture and going Calendar first, the timing works out just about perfectly; Worker in 9t, moves to Corn, 4t Farm and then Calendar completes to allow him to start work straight away on the Silks. Not completely ideal though as Rhoanna needs to stay on the Oasis for the first turn after the Corn Farm is complete to do so, but Perp's CRE gets the Oasis a turn earlier and can then switch straight to the Corn.
*My initial dotmap was thinking too much in a vacuum and failed to account for Capital 3rd ring (due t25 for non-CRE):
* That gives me options to push outwards with both Pink and Blue dots. Benefits of both are principally for non-CRE, with Pink getting Gold into borders ASAP, while moving Blue to the North bring the Deer into 1st-ring. Pushing Blue all the way to the Coast gives less opportunity for improvement sharing, but might be the strongest available hammer site - with 3 Mines available before popping borders and a 4th available with a pop from either itself or Grey. Shifting Blue does leave the starting tile abandoned, but it would be a decent place to grow a Fort to support each of the other cities.
* Not sure about the next tech after Calendar; Crafting is the gateway to Mining & Mines/Chops but is relatively expensive and no use by itself; OTOH, Exploration would let me start to connect the cities and resources (Silks for +1 ) but probably delay the arrival of Mining. I think this is probably something to revisit with a deeper sim once the civ has been confirmed.
* 9t Worker then another 4t for a Warrior; I'm thinking to keep the existing Warrior nearby, or maybe do a short run to the Gold beforehand, but that's a 10t window of danger.... Starting Settler and then City borders will reveal a lot to the South & West, so the Scout will probably head NW to look around the Pigs and then maybe circle around the top of the pod.
Next step is to run a short sim tonight with Mahala to see how a non-Agr civ starts, then confirm the picks and wait for the results to be announced before running a deeper sim.
Capital went: Worker - grow to size 5 building 3 Beastmen - Settler - Worker - 1t Beastman using overflow - then Workers/Settlers with occasional Beastmen as needed.
City 2 planted at Deer ~t30: grow building a Beastman - Worker
City 3 down at Gold ~t40
Tech path: Agr-Cal-Craft-Mining-Exploration saw a couple of spare Worker turns before Calendar completes, but then Workers were too busy hooking Resources to build Roads before Mining would complete. It does mean that cities 2 & 3 had no trade connections until much later though, so I think with an Agri start it might be worth going Exploration second and building a second Worker before the Settler to connect & pre-improve the second city location.
Overall I'm pretty happy with the general start plan and am happy to lock in the picks:
1) Hippus - Rhoanna
2) Balseraph - Perpentach
3) Doviello - Mahala
4) Lanun - Falamar
5) Sheaim - Averax the Cambion
6) Luchuirp - Garrim Gyr
7) Clan of Embers - Jonas Endain
8) Grigori - Cassiel
Well that went well. Although now I have no-one to blame but myself!
Pretty consistent groupings of picks from everyone with the exception of TBS, who went strong on the SPI options and a few civs out from the mainstream. Absence of Clan and Calabim surprised me a bit, and I think the Ljosalfar and Elohim picks are a little outside the mainstream.
I might do some player/leader combo assessments in the next couple of days ... but probably not.
Quote:Dreylin - Rhoanna (Fin/Exp) of the Hippus
Dave - Falamar (Exp/Cha) of the Lanun
TBS - Arendel (Cre/Spi) of the Ljosalfar
Bob - Averax the Cambion (Agg/Exp/Bar) of the Sheaim
Auroarcher - Varn Gosam (Spi/Cre*) of the Malakim
Qgqqqqq - Thessalonica (Ind/Spi) of the Elohim
Ellimist - Perpentach (Arc/Cha/Cre/Ins) of the Balseraphs
jalepeno - Garrim Gyr (Fin/Arc) of Luchuirp
World Spells:
Internally Focused: Balseraphs Revelry - triggers a double-duration Golden Age Luchuirp Gifts of Nantosuelta - Creates a Golden Hammer in each city; gives unit +1 strength or can be added to city as Engineer Specialist
Primarily Offensive: Lanun Raging Seas - Damage all non-Lanun units adjacent to Coast up to 75%, also 25% chance to destroy adjacent improvements Sheaim Worldbreak - Armageddon Counter /4 chance to start Smoke in all Forests & Jungles and damage buildings and units in Cities (Sheaim excluded)
Primarily Defensive: Ljosalfar March of the Trees - Each Forest & Ancient Forest (not New Forests) in-Culture spawns a Treant unit w/5t duration Elohim Sanctuary - Expel all non-civ units from borders; exclusion lasts for 14(?) turns on Quick
Mixed Utility: Hippus Warcry - All units gain +1 move, +1 strength & may attack multiple times per turn (5% chance to wear off each unit) Malakim Religious Fervor - spawn a Priest unit in each city with State Religion; Priests start with xp equal to # cities.
) but probably delay the arrival of Mining. I think this is probably something to revisit with a deeper sim once the civ has been confirmed.
Although now I have no-one to blame but myself! 
