RB Pitboss #3 [SPOILERS]- Suryavarman II of England

[Cyneheard]

Chat with Byzantium: (This one's really long, very meandering)

me: Hey, this is Cyneheard
Spectres: hey! this is bobchillingworth. pleased to talk to you!
me: how goes it?
Spectres: can't complain. games really moving along now! :P
me: India founded a 3rd city before the turn end, though. Tried to sneak it in.
Spectres: punks
me: Heh, we considered doing the same thing with Beaver Rock, but the turned rolled at like 4AM
Spectres: heh, honestly I don't see why it really would matter this early in the game
me: Screw with everyone else's C&D. Rome did it, and it messed me up for a few turns
Spectres: ah. We aren't really running any over here. I'll admit
me: Well, your most recent tech was probably pottery, learned this turn. your previous tech was BW
Spectres: not bad [OOC: Ha! I was right!] course' we get that info just by asking people
me: ah, but I have it for everybody. Tech data's tough, power's even worse. Population's easy
Spectres: spread sheets & everything?
me: Yes. what's your capital name? Didn't recognize Feros. Our is still London, and going to stay that way.
Spectres: yeah, figured. Admirable, but a number-crunching was never my strong point. The Citadel, going for a mass effect theme.
me: thanks, ah. Our theme is somewhat random. Mostly British-themed names. Gulliver as our traveling scout, Animal Farm as our 2nd city. Richard the Lionhearted's out and about
Spectres: I think my theme appeals only to me & moogle, poor mania probably feels confused
me: heh
Spectres: anyway, care to shoot some questions back and forth?
Spectres: Maya is cat-themed
me: That makes sense they're SW of Babylon?
Spectres: not quite. that's one thing I'd like to do- compare map knowlege with you. Babylon is more-or-less directly West of us; Maya is similarly East. our neighbors, essentially
me: ah, Mali is directly west of Babylon
Spectres: yes, and east of maya. you... are north. above babylon perhaps?
me: toroidal's going to take some getting used to
Spectres: I actually play most sp torroidal
me: correct, although somewhat west of them. it's disorienting for "3 easts = west" purposes
Spectres: yeah. perhaps you are aware of the map type?
me: oh, we're finishing up our 43EP spend on Mali.
Spectres: we have fairly good authority
me: 4096 tiles, 4047 land. and were planning on getting your charts next, if you don't mind. [OOC: Changed to Babylon. Diplo not the same as it was an hour ago.]
Spectres: go for it. so, would you concur on the theory that the map is a Team Battlegrounded, edited for beyond huge size, set as North V. South?
me: I don't know that map (never played MP before), but it's clearly a square toroid. 64x64 fits our distance maintenance costs
Spectres: yes, we have heard as much. I believe that the map type has been independently confirmed by Maya and Babylon, about as accurately as anyone can do at this early stage
me: good to know. Shame that isn't the WB sim I had set-up way back when to plan our early micro
Spectres: the lack of water is slightly distressing, given that we will be lacking 3 food and one happy resource. Also the arguably best corp in the game is useless now, and I wouldn't want to be portugal or carthage
me: Fishing's only value to us has been a 20% discount on Pottery.
Spectres: my team was the only one with a lake at the captial
me: no, it wasn't the only one.
Spectres: really? we were last in land...(I'm terrible at C&D)
me: Rome has 1 in their 2nd ring of their capital
Spectres: huh
me: and the Ottomans (founded T1) have 1 in their first ring
Spectres: it's more a formality at this point than anything else, but just to confirm: you have the jungle silver as well?
me: Yes
Spectres: don't suppose you were one of the ones to found on it?
me: We founded T0, so, no. if we were Financial, I'd have argued for settling on it, +2 commerce would've been nice
Spectres: we considered
me: +1? Not worth it.
Spectres: seemed a waste tho; ironworking is something one researches early anyway
me: One of our screwball pick options was Mongolia + Hannibal. Byz works, too
Spectres: we hope so
me: well, 2 commerce per turn for the first 70t is a big deal.
Spectres: yes, but bigger if no tech trading
me: Babylon did mention you guys were going for IW, oh, and Mali has seen barb warriors
Spectres: we have killed one already easy exp
me: don't tell Wolf the Quarrelsome that. He was our first warrior built in our capital. Died on a forest to a lion.
Spectres: sheesh
me: 4.4%
Spectres: maya also lost their scout early, similar odds
me: Gulliver ate something last turn, probably the wolf
Spectres: we've been very conservative and lucky with our scouting, only whacked a lion, wolf, and warrior so far
me: well, we also killed a bear early. that was scary, we had mid-60s odds on him
Spectres: still only worth 1 exp, right?
me: yeah
Spectres: a shame. so, you've probably heard talk about a tech alliance
me: a little
Spectres: inevitable, really. I'm happy to elaborate; the current thoughts are of one consisting of you, us, babylon, maya, and mali. techers, all, and potential powerhouses
me: Babylon's probably looking at a mid-80s Alphabet if they play it right.
Spectres: we're all working to establish contact with each other ASAP
me: So we need to contact the Maya.
Spectres: yeah, and us mali. I think everyone needs only one more contact
me: Royal Guard is currently about 3E, and slightly N, of Mali's capital, one of our warriors. so, he can continue to head west, and meet the Maya. could you tell them we'll be north of Mali's territory?
Spectres: of course! maya will reach babylon in 3-4 turns from the west, you have a warrior near there, same one we met. might meet them if you turn around
me: oh, ok
Spectres: try to coordinate screen shots with babylon, if they can see both your and maya's units
me: ah
Spectres: what are you throughts on a tech alliance? interest, parties to be included, etc?
me: our primary goal is to secure an alphabet round of trades. we've gotten feelers from another group, to our NW, as well.
Spectres: which makes sense; geographically, you're the slight outlier in the group of 5 we propose
me: Metagame, I see this game settling into 3-4 groups. We're not ready to commit to either group. HBR is tempting for us, we already have horses online. What are Mali and Maya looking to contribute for the 1st round of deals?
Spectres: Mali is uncertain; still need to contact them, and so does maya. Babylon will go writing then alpha. maya will be writing, then maths. ourselves will be ironworking then... not sure
me: Archery would be a nice filler, to even out the beakers a bit. IW's the cheapest of all the early round
Spectres: oh we're aware of that the plan is to either throw in something like masonry [OOC: Sadness.] or give a very favorible trade later. to be honest I'm more the unofficial diplo guy for our team, at the moment. Moogle is more involved in the techs
me: I'm the turnplayer + C&D guy, ASM's been keeping the diplo straight with me, and hap checks in when he gets time
Spectres: If you would like to be involved for a single round of trades, then that's no issue- but there is also talk of a longer-term cooperative
me: well, we can go either way.
Spectres: mind if I ask what the other group courting you is?
me: Holy Rome's been doing the courting
Spectres: just them?
me: and a meeting's being arranged with everyone else. TBH, I don't know who all's in it. [OOC: And at this moment, I didn't.]
Spectres: hmm k. we have also heard of the Inca trying to form a clique
me: who else is in it?
Spectres: wouldn't be surprised if rego was behind one. not clear
me: HRE and France aren't on good terms
Spectres: babylon heard about a possible group from inca, but the incan representative apparently didn't have permission to reveal too much, so not much is known, plus I'm getting this second hand :P
me: secrecy in forming groups...I can't say I'm a huge fan. everyone knows they're going to happen in a TT game [OOC: Until I heard the details of HRE's plan, I was leaning towards these guys, much friendlier and open with us. But so, so screwed.]
Spectres: yeah, but I think people are looking for something permanent
while trying to pick targets at the same time
me: do we really want to form just a single 100t-long alliance this early?
Spectres: that depends entirely on what the goal of the alliance is, to be honest
me: true.
Spectres: if it's just a "get to x level of development" cartel, then no. if there's an overall objective, then certainly. One potential objective is unlocking cataphracts early with allies
me: sadly, Rifling is going to take a while. Is it too late to trade civs with the Maya? Creative Ball Courts would be great for us, and they'd get Agg Redcoats.
Spectres: they wanted england! they told us so :D
me: well, Maya were tempting. Frankly, if Maya had better starting techs (Myst/Hunting's very weak), we might've taken them. Although I must admit, Sury's been great
Spectres: does maya have hunting? I think it's mining. hunting myst is monty :P, well, aztec
me: oh, right. We thought Fishing was going to be useful. And Myst as creative isn't. Oh god, the USA-Canada match looks like it's going to OT. [OOC: Sadness.]
Spectres: haha I can hear the cheering upstairs. hockey was never my thing :P
me: me neither, but this is when I wish I owned a TV
Spectres: so, I understand that you're reulctant to commit to anything this early in regards to long-term tech alliance, but do keep it in mind
me: oh, we definitely are keeping it in mind.
Spectres: I don't know what the nature of the tech alliances that form will be- but I think that a lasting cooperative with set goals will have the advantage. that's the theory, anyway
me: I think you're right
Spectres: say; one that helps our civ reach uberknights quickly (which are then mass-produced and gifted as need be), and then works in concert to unlock redcoats...
me: it's definitely strong. Guilds by T130, you think?
Spectres: that would be nice I'm not the person to ask for solid turn estimates, tho. not to say you can't get any!
me: lol
Spectres: but yeah, I didn't even know we had pottery until you said we did, and I saw that moogle had updated our thread.
me: that was a 90% guess: it made sense, but I could've been wrong, too. BW was obvious
Spectres: I get the impression that everyone has some variation of agr, AH, pottery, mining, and BW, which is obvious.
me: actually, I don't think Krill does. He doesn't have BW
Spectres: hmm....
me: and I don't think he has AH. Might be wrong there, his tech path's been weird [OOC: If only I'd known at that point how weird it was...I wish I hadn't mentioned this bit, but didn't have HRE's spiel at that point]
Spectres: killed lobo with a warrior... yeah I guess it had to be. anyone have any idea where krill is? My team suspects that he will be attempting a religious econ, probably with the intent of demonstrating that one can dominate a game with any half-sensible strategy, if they play skillfully enough
me: I don't know where he is [OOC: I don't know where he is. I know where I'm meeting him.]
Spectres: oh rome has been spotted, just got confirmation
me: Nice. We were worried when we saw Babylon's purple
Spectres: south of babylon. not sure how far south tho, babylon hasn't actualyl met them yet. was informed by inca of their location
me: Well, directly north of us is the HRE, so one row, about 12-15 tiles south of Babylon is Rome
Spectres: yeah. sorry, any idea who is west and east of you? I really need to draw a map...
me: I think west of us is Carthage. due east is France
Spectres: oh, exploit. heh
me: so France is NW of you. Sumeria?
Spectres: oh, wait. who is france?
me: Morgan + DMOC
Spectres: ah, okay. hmm. okay, sort of fishing here, so no need to answer, but... what would HRE and france be on bad terms? They don't border, it sounds like...
me: they actually do, HRE's capital is somewhat NE of us
Spectres: settled toward each other on a diagonal, I guess? spatial reasoning isn't my strong point either :P was a history major
Spectres: I'm going to get some dinner. Will be back on later and available if there's anything else you'd like to discuss; otherwise, I think we should focus on mali, us, you, babylon, and maya all reaching contact ASAP so that we can arrange at least one round of tech trades fluently, with consideration for a larger cooperative. later!
me: ok, later

[Cyneheard]

And to close it out, Babylon:

I was somewhat more direct with them, might've said too much. This was basically after I'd gotten the HRE scoop.
My thoughts:
1) We have to tell them when we meet Carthage + Egypt + anybody else. If we don't play fair, they will be coming after us. I don't know about you, but my MP tactics aren't top-notch.
2) We tell them that we've passed on their request, which we will. However, we will ask Krill not to respond to that request for a few turns, so we can tell Babylon "we've passed your request on, but haven't gotten word back on that."

Pericles: Greetings
me: howdy
Pericles: how's it going? Cyneheard i presume?
me: yes
Pericles: how's the scouting been going pal?
me: slowly
Pericles: i believe we agreed to inform each other of new contacts, so i'm happy to tell you we have met Inca
me: nice. We should be meeting Carthage soon
Pericles: they are currently heading east to meet byz then wheeling around our territory, to the northern side then towards mali
me: ok, Gulliver is heading for the Maya
Pericles: so if you wanted to meet them, it could be arranged. westward or eastward?
me: eastward
Pericles: great, if you delay that meet a turn or two you should be able to swing down and see inca on the way
me: well, we do have to heal for 2t...
Pericles: 2t? i wish we were that lucky. We're on 6t on both scouts currently!
me: well, we had 1 warrior end up with infinity turns on his healing...
Pericles: infinity? That's impressive
me: we could wait an infinite amount of time, and Wolf the Quarrelsome would still not be back at full health. So, yes, infinity.
Pericles: haha. i don't suppose you've had any thoughts as to our email regarding tech?
me: we're still thinking over our options. HRE has also made us an offer
Pericles: receiving other offers from up north?
me: what's your ETA on Alphabet?
Pericles: ha i thought that might have been the case
me: T85?
Pericles: approx, maybe a turn or two earlier. cottages are being thrown down everywhere and we have gold nearby
me: Well, my C&D predicts you'll get Writing around T62, and with a double-chopped library at the capital...
Pericles: you're 1 turn slow 61
me: not bad, not bad.
Pericles: we teched pottery slow. the last turn we completed it whilst at 0% science heh
me: 1 beaker?
Pericles: yup
me: That's hilarious.
Pericles: we have a nice amount of gold deposits too so can keep 100% up for a fair bit. i don't suppose i can ask any offer of the HRe offer? it's obviously not them alone or you wouldn't be considering your options
me: well, we're meeting Carthage in a few turns, they're in. Others, that I can't say. [OOC: Again, not allowed to say, instead of didn't know]
Pericles: lots?
me: yeah. And they're going to beat your Alphabet time.
Pericles: hmm. so it's either being beelined or oracle'd. we're rather high on the gnp chart
me: you're creative, that's 4 of that
Pericles: granted. ok, i understand your want to keep the other bloc under wraps for now. but the other bloc, perhaps they are after more civs?
me: I have no idea.
Pericles: with an academy soon we'll be in a very strong position for researching soon, tho i won't leave mali out of any group. but with them being fin/ind and skilled players, they're hardly going to be techers to sniff at
me: true.
Pericles: any chance you can speak to this group on our behalf? we can easily swap to aesthetics or something, if that's more needed
me: Give me a few turns, we should be meeting the leaders soon. Not Carthage
Pericles: ok, within 7 turns would be very appreciated
me: Understood. We should have contact with them by then.
Pericles: thanks. i know you don't gain a whole lot from that BUT it would secure your southern flank if us and mali were on board
me: I know. There's two sets of peaks almost due south of us, and there will be a border city there at some point. [OOC: Who knows when we'll go for Gibraltar. T100?]
Pericles: don't think we've seen them, we haven't scouted directly north much. from what we have seen, the land is atrocious
me: agreed
Pericles: only found 1 resource and that was silks. ZERO food
me: yowzers, that's really bad
Pericles: yeah that's the NE of us it's rough. we will be settling vaguely in your direction soon, but nothing much. no more than 4 tiles or so from our capital
me: oh, that's fine
Pericles: just grabbing the few food resources up there that are in our culture already
me: Our first 2 cities were N of our capital, and our next one will almost certainly be 1st ring S of our capital, not sure where
Pericles: that's cool, we're going east next, so we'll have two border cities in place. then we can fill in
me: I've got to get some work done, so I should go
Pericles: ok pal
take care
me: you too

[haphazard1]

Wow...lots going on this evening.

First the turn: dry rice, and with enough hills and desert that it will likely stay dry for a long long time (maybe forever). Not all that wonderful, but it is food. So maybe we plant 1S of where I originally put a sign in the desert? Gets GH pigs, dry rice, and one silk, with a fair bit of grassland to cottage and forests to chop for infra. Not a bad city and seals off our capital from the south. Once we chop those 3 forests there would be no way for opponents to reach the city without coming into the open. Gibraltar seems obvious.

Out northwest of Animal Farm...all those lovely river tiles, and nothing in sight but one plains wine? What is up with the resources in this game?

Charts on Mali look pretty favorable to us.

Diplo...wow, big decisions to be made. And to think just a handful of turns ago we had not met anyone. The northern alliance sounds awfully tempting, but we only know one member right now, soon to be two with Carthage. Very hard to trade with anyone when we have not met, and tech brokering is going to make logistics a nightmare.

But if it can be made to work, with half the teams in the game in one block, all the others will have smaller groupings and will fall behind. And it only has to hold up for 2, maybe 3 rounds of trades and all the other civs will be a generation behind in military tech. Very quick deaths for the non-members.

How is the first round of trades going to work, though? Krill Oracles Alpha, then he has to trade that to everyone else since he is the only one who can. Nice deal for him...no one can trade Alpha outside the block, although they could deal their self-researched techs. Anyway, he is going to be fronting quite a lot of beakers to a lot of people, which presumably means we all owe him lopsided trades later. Pretty sweet deal for him.

Anyway, the other 7 teams get Alpha, trade Krill whatever they have (BW, AH, whatever) and owe him for more beakers. We trade amongst ourselves to fill in missing techs as well, so most of us get most of what we are missing. Probably not all since there will only be so many deals -- with this many people there will be duplication, so some civs will not have anything unique/useful to offer.

Next round, Krill techs something minor while cranking out cities and such, and cashes in all those owed beakers. Everybody leapfrogs well into the Classical Era. Third round...we could be seeing longbows and cats and more by very early years. The non-cartel civs then get crunched, most likely.

My biggest worry is that if we belong to the northern cartel, we are the exposed southern tip -- most likely to get eaten by the southern block, especially if we can not come up with some metal. Not sure what we can do about that, other than try to be prepared with plenty of units. Definitely want those 2-pop barracks whips overflowing into granaries -- we are going to need the promoted units.

Very nice work on all this, Cyneheard. Thanks for all your time as our turn player. I feel like I am not contributing enough, but except for weekends I can not play except in the later evenings.

[Cyneheard]

Everyone needs to have met at least Krill for this to have a chance of working.

After Alpha comes in, then everyone's going to have a tech to go for next. Krill's getting plenty of beakers in trades for Alpha+Writing:
Animal Husbandry
Mining
Bronze Working
Fishing
Hunting

This 1st real round will include techs like:
Mathematics
Currency
Code of Laws
Monarchy
Iron Working
Horseback Writing
probably Aesthetics
Someone goes and backfills Archery, Sailing, etc.
There are 8 teams total.

Also, I would not consider the Oracle safe. Exploit is probably making a run for it, as well. He'll probably get Priesthood T58 or T59, and then have a few turns to try to chop & whip (one thing Krill doesn't have) it out. If the Oracle falls to Exploit, then that plan's in trouble. That whole group will collapse, and Krill will be very screwed, without BW, AH, or even Mining.

I dunno how slimy this is, but do we want to make a conditional offer to Babylon & co: If the Oracle falls to Krill, then we partner with Krill's group. If the Oracle falls to Exploit, then we stick with Babylon's team?

Hap, your advice has been invaluable.

[haphazard1]

OK, that makes sense on the potential for the cartel. And we should make contact with Egypt shortly, if I understood the HRE chat transcript correctly.

Very good point about the chance for the Egyptians to not get the Oracle. This would be a huge hit to them, and as you said would essentially blow the entire cartel plan to smithereens.

What are the possibilities for the two IND civs to get the Oracle? Mali does not have its marble settled yet, but as IND they do not necessarily need it. And India definitely has the potential to Fast Worker chop. I have not checked the most recent C&D spreadsheet -- maybe neither IND civ has Priesthood. But it is a pretty cheap tech if you have a prereq, and Krill has to be slow building it even if he has marble.

If Exploit were to get the Oracle, what would he be likely to take from it? Does he have Writing? Or would he be more likely to grab Monarchy or CoL?

[Cyneheard]

Exploit has:
Agriculture
The Wheel
Mysticism
Meditation
Mining
Bronze Working

So no COL. His options are Monarchy or Metal Casting, or HBR or IW for a rush (but why take the Oracle for those 2, instead of simply teching them directly?). My guess is Metal Casting, and a fast Engineer (the SANCTA maneuver: steal the Oracle out under someone's nose, grab MC, and Engineer the 'Mids out of it). I don't know if he can get 150 hammers in the time he'll have.

[haphazard1]

Hmmm. Maybe he would just be going for the Oracle to see if he can get it? Grab something useful (Monarchy, MC) and deny it to everyone else, get some prophet GPP going. He wants Priesthood anyway for his UB, so the opportunity cost of making an attempt at the Oracle is very low.

Still, if the two estimates are even semi-accurate, he is unlikely to have enough turns to chop/whip it before Krill finishes. He could start with a big overflow from a whip and then chop like mad...but if Krill can really finish by early/mid 60's then I just don't see it happening.

Say Krill hits his T62 target. That is only 8 turns from now, 3 of which we will spend finishing Pottery. Our treasury will be empty at that point, so we run several turns of gold in any case. I am not really sure what we could trade for Hunting that other civs won't already have, but maybe we can swing a deal. We then go full speed for our "assigned" tech, hopefully something which is also directly useful to us like HBR in case the cartel falls apart.

Hmmm. Krill fronts everyone Writing + Alpha, maybe getting some small change in return. This would get us our CRE libraries up front, pretty nice for us. Maybe we can pick up Hunting as well in the "zero-th" round of trading. Then lots of good stuff from the first round.

We would not be able to trade Writing or Alpha due to no tech brokering, but with Alpha trades in general would be possible with the southern civs. Maybe get Hunting there if not possible from the cartel? Not sure how our trading partners would feel about that, but if it is not available maybe we could swing it.

Seems like keeping up with the other cartel members and having something worth trading in each round would be crucial. And finding hammers to build improvements and such for the new techs which come in with each round...geting libraries up, getting forges and courthouses up, markets, etc. While keeping enough military to deter potential aggression from every direction on the map. While still getting some new cities settled.

This is going to be challenging.

[Cyneheard]

Aye, it is challenging.

Why 4t might be enough for Exploit: Krill's done it in 1t. 4t, between chops and whip overflow, could do it.

So, do we take the deal with Krill's team? We should write up a formal acceptance letter, as well. And, yes, we will have to deal with aggression from our south, but we won't be the only ones they'll have to worry about. And they will likely come for us. The Incan bloc (rumor has it that they're up to something, probably with Sumeria and some others) might be forced to make some sort of deal with the "Southern Alliance" of Maya/Mali/Babylon/Byz. It'll get ugly, and not everyone is going to survive.

If we take this deal, my goals are:
1) Be a productive member of our alliance
2) Survive (& be prepared for) a Babylon/Mali joint strike. Gibraltar and DP will have to take the brunt of an assault, assuming we've founded those two cities by then.
3) Crush France, if possible. HRE's certainly looking to do that, and if we can get a military tech edge, they won't stand a chance. While the 1st round of tech trades has very little of direct military use, the second round of Civil Service, Machinery, Feudalism, Construction certainly does. . And there's no question which side would be the first there, with a 20t head start.

[haphazard1]

I agree that the two small blocks (Inca + friends, and Babylon + friends) would pretty much be forced to join in a larger alliance or get left behind.

We are one point of contact between the northern Cartel and the Babylon block. But there should be others, given the toroidal map. We can also try to build a close relationship with Carthage, who could aid us against Mali (or at least threaten to, to draw off forces).

On the alliance goals, I strongly agree with #1. If we join a block, we have to produce enough value to remain a member in good standing -- an ally people want to keep rather than being perceived as free-riding. I think we can do that. We are not FIN but we have good land in our core with lots of river tiles to cottage. We should be able to maintain a decent beaker rate.

I also agree on #2. We will need to be prepared. Animal Farm will also need to be strongly defended -- Mali knows the city is there and we may not have anything south or southwest of it for some time. Having our horses disconnected would be quite irritating. And if we still have no metal...lethal.

For #3, I am less certain. I would like to know more about France's side of what has happened. Also, is the animosity just with HRE, or are other cartel members going to join in? If there are multiple civs joining the attack, we should participate to build goodwill and maybe get some pillage gold or a stolen worker or two. But if the battle is soon we will not have much to contribute -- a couple chariots at most. More options will be available if it is after the first round of tech trades, of course.

[Cyneheard]

Oh, also: Someone's spamming axes. A few turns ago, rival best power jumped from 33k to 42k, so an axe + barracks would cover that. Then, this turn, that jumped to 48k, another axe. Whoever's doing this (and it's not the HRE, they're more concerned about everyone's GNP than they are military) has at least 29k in units + barracks. E.g., 1 barracks + 3 axes + 4 warriors. I wish I knew who it was, too many possibilities.

Krill's knocked out at least 1 War Chariot; he's got at least 12k worth of units, and has had AH since forever.

Edit: Unit costs:
[0.24 * N] + 7 are free units, where N is the number of pop points that we have. We'll be at 9 free units when we grow 1 more pop. So, basically, every 4 pop after that = 1 more free unit.