[SPOILERS] Yuris125 tries to win a game of Civ5 before it fades away

[yuris125]

T5

Here's an interesting tile: a flatland desert gold Still deserves a city of course, not quite sure on the exact spot yet, but it will be there. I like that I have plans for two future cities so early, makes me feel good about my choice of Liberty




Demos have one number which stands out - the land area. Someone already has 2 tiles in addition to the starting 7. I don't think there was any way to get two natural expansions by now, so makes me think someone bought a tile this early (presumably with gold popped from a hut). Not sure if there are any conclusions to be drawn from it - just an observation

[yuris125]

T6

Didn't take screenshots, but there was nothing particularly screenshottable. The big news of the turn was finishing Pottery. Started on Calendar, due in 8 currently, but growing to size 3 will likely shave off a turn. Will calculate the exact date next turn, as that is when I finish my second Scount, and have a big decision to make. As I hinted earlier in discussion with T-hawk, one option taking the Tradition opener gave me is skipping a Monument and instead getting a Worker out before starting Stonehenge

The big argument for a Worker is that if I don't get one out now, I likely won't get one until after Collective Rule. Which means I will be building Stonehenge and the first Settlers working unimproved tiles, and the second city won't have improved tiles either

The big argument against is that the Worker won't really have much worthwhile to do this early. He would improve the silk, which would only give 1 extra gpt, the least important resource in the early game. He might then improve the sheep if I bump AH in priority list and research it ahead of Archery. But then what? I definitely want Archery over Mining, so getting extra production is not going to happen. And farming plains tiles is not worthwhile until Civil Service

A less important, but also significant argument against a Worker is that skipping a Monument would delay Collective Rule, and it wouldn't be a trivial delay. With a Monument, I would get on T24, T23 is I can finish Monument by T11. Without one, it will be T28. Civ5 tile improvements may not be good enough to justify delaying the second city by 4 or even 5 turns

One big question is what would be the next border expansion and how long it would take. I'm getting one next turn, and it will grab the 2/1 sheep. But seeing what I would get after that would help to determine whether getting a Worker would be worthwhile

Currently inclined to go with the original plan and build a Monument next. Monument is also cheaper than a Worker, so there's a possibility I would be able to squeeze out a third Scout before Calendar finishes. More Scouts = more ways to find gold on the map = getting enough gold to buy a Worker faster. But will look at the numbers next turn before making the decision

[yuris125]

T7

I found my first barb camp. Located conveniently enough to get a quest from Mombasa, clear it, and repair relationships with them after I borrow (to be returned in 2050AD) a Worker from them . Also another gold, this one is on flatland jungle. Chumchu certainly doesn't believe in placing luxuries on natural terrain

This turn I also got my second policy and took the Liberty opener - still following the plan

Here's a zoomed out overview of the world as we know it so far




Now to the maths. Firstly, as you can see below, I'm only one beaker short of finishing Calendar in 6 turns rather than 7. I will get that missing beaker as soon as the capital grows, so Calendar will finish T13




Capital's next border expansion will be on the plans silk - a useless 1/1/2 tile I don't want to work, improved or unimproved. I will work bare hill over it. So yet another strike against a Worker. If the next expansion was to the hills sheep, it would've been more useful, but as it stands, I'm certain I will not have anything useful for a Worker to do after he improves the grassland silk and the plains sheep

Unfortunately me doing maths was stopped in its tracks by seeing the following




I have production of 6 hpt. Monument costs 26 hammers. I will produce a Monument in 4 turns

!?!?!?!

Whyyyyyy????? Does Civ5 misrepresent the information, hide the overflow, or just fail to count properly?

Anyway, I decided to go with my gut feeling and with the logic. Building a Worker and not using him would not be a good decision. So started on Monument. The plan still is to build a 3rd Scout after that, and then start on Stonehenge

[T-hawk]

Whyyyyyy????? Does Civ5 misrepresent the information, hide the overflow, or just fail to count properly?

It doesn't show the overflow.

Civ 5 didn't even allow overflow as a mechanic until several patches in. It exists now but the UI was never updated to show it.

[yuris125]

Thanks T-hawk! Serves me right for not tracking overflow until now I guess

[chumchu]

FYI gold appears on flat desert in the common map scripts ; P

Jungle gold though, that is obviously part of my ingenious plan to get you. You will know it when you see it...

[yuris125]

Quick thoughts on religion while Pindicator is trying to overcome yet another Civ5's hissy fit

When I saw the start, I thought the culture from plantations pantheon was no brainer the best option. So much silk makes one think that. Problem is, as I said when discussing the Worker question, plains silk is not a good tile to work. It does give a lot of gold, but I don't particularly want to work gold-producing tiles this early. I want food and hammers, gold is at best a tie breaker. Plains silk is kind of like plains riverside cottage in Civ4 - one would work it if there were no better options, and it would be a productive tile, but it would never be a high priority

My preferred pantheon currently is culture from pastures. I have 2 sheep in the capital's range, and there will be horses as well - presence of horses near the capital was discussed during game setup. So it would be the same 3 religion-improved tiles, but with much better yield (grassland sheep pasture is 3/1, hill sheep is 2/2, plains (presumably) horse would be 1/3)

That being said, I likely won't get first choice of pantheon. I haven't talked about pantheons much before, because there's no way I'm going to beat Nicolae and his Steles to it. I think he would beat me even if he doesn't build a Stele and waits until Legalism to get one for free. Assuming I get Stonehenge, I will overtake him and will be first to religion (which is why I'm going for the 'henge in the first place), but he's as close as it gets to a lock to get first pick of the pantheon. So... my second preference at the moment is food from camps - would be helpful with so many plains tiles around and deer + truffles in the capital's range. If both are gone, the third choice is up in the air - at the moment it still is culture from plantations, but I may change my mind based on the next few turns of scouting

As for religion itself.. I'm currently inclined to take Holy Warriors as the first follower's belief, and leave religious building until enhancement. Holy Warriors is a crucial belief to get. My game plan is built around boosting faith and getting advantage from it. To get advantage from faith, I would have to spend it (doh). After I spread religion around and buy all my religious buildings, the only reasonable way to spend it is by buying units. The only alternatives are missionaries (not very useful, as I don't think spreading religion to other civs is beneficial in multiplayer game) or save up for great prophets (useless for the same reason). I don't like these options; moreover, I think buying units is the absolute best way to convert faith advantage into tangible in-game advantage. So I do have to get Holy Warriors

On the other hand, I don't particularly care if I have to take Mosques instead of Pagodas as my religious building. I expect at least one to be still available when I enhance religion. And my first faith purchase after founding religion will have to be a missionary to spread it, so I don't think delaying building belief until enhancement will actually delay a building (math is iffy on this one, as it includes a lot of variables, and an element of randomness for when I get my first great prophet; but the baseline is that there will be around 25 turns between founding religion and getting the great engineer to rush Hagia Sophia for enhancement prophet, and there's no way I would be able to accumulate enough faith to purchase a missionary and a building in 25 turns)

Bottom line is, it's a risk - if I miss out on both Mosques and Pagodas, the remaining religious buildings are significantly worse, as they don't give a happiness boost. But Holy Warriors belief is irreplaceable for my plan, while Mosques or Pagodas are just nice to haves. Important nice to haves, sure, but not more than that

[T-hawk]

Holy Warriors and a building belief? It seems unlikely you'd get enough faith to spend fully into both of those. I get 100 faith/turn in single player with cooked Desert Folklore setups, but a more realistic number is something like 30-40.

[yuris125]

That's a fair point, and I admit I may have tunnel visioned onto building beliefs, considering how much of an auto pick they are most of the time. Ultimately, I think it depends on how many cities I manage to settle. I'm going Liberty precisely because from the point of view of faith production, there's no drawback to more cities. Also, 30-40 fpt is not that low on quick speed; 45 fpt is enough for a building every 3 turns, and I can reach that after buying the first building if I manage to settle 7 cities (Organised Religion boosted Shrine + Temple give 5fpt per city, +8fpt from Wonders assuming I get them = 43fpt without any Pagodas/Mosques)

The decision to take Holy Warriors as the first follower belief allows me to delay this decision. By the time I enhance religion, I will know if I'm getting those 7 cities, how much fpt I can expect to get, etc. But my feeling is that buildings will still be worthwhile, and better than any other option

[yuris125]

T9

The big news of this turn is right here




No, I don't mean the hut (although stealing someone else's hut always feels good - hopefully it will still be there next turn!). Those are HAK's borders. After taking the hut, I'm going to try to get visibility on his capital and see what he's been up to

I don't want to rate opponents, but considering how often HAK said he had next to no Civ5 experience, I have to say I'm a lot happier having him as neighbour than, say, oledavy

My capital grew to size 3 this turn; demos say that there are two players with size 3 caps at the moment, I'm pretty sure the other one is oledavy (speak of the devil). Mine currently looks like this




After my border grows next turn, I'm strongly considering buying the deer tile. I'm not quite sure if it's worth spending gold on, but the fact is - I need more hammers. Even in the immediate future: I need 26 hammers to finish the Monument and build a Scout in the next 4 turns, I currently don't have enough. I could work the hill to get those missing hammers, but that would slow the growth. Getting that hammer from the deer, without slowing the growth, seems worth 30 gold (I believe that's what the tile is going to cost, although the mechanic is rather obscure). Additionally, buying the deer makes it very likely that the next expansion will be onto the hill sheep, which obviously is a strictly better tile than bare hill, and the tile I would very much want to work at size 4 or 5

(at least I hope that will be next expansion - the tile picker does hate hills... watch it pick the bare grassland instead)

Finally, I found furs in the north, but apparently didn't take a screenshot. Will post one next turn, along with the current tentative dotmap. I already see 4 decent spots, which is what makes me think 7+ cities will be possible