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From Krill this morning:
Quote:Salutations to the Carthaginian!
It is with great pleasure that I accept your offer of a 25 turn NAP, and the confirmation that you are part of the Alliance is most heart warming.
I would like to thank you for the directions to meet England, however there is one factor that you may have overlooked. I finish research into Writing at the end of this turn, and could hence offer Open Borders. If you were willing to grant me this boon, then it would mean that John Keel could move NE-E-NE and meet England several turns earlier, and heal in the safety of your borders. As there is a barb warrior on your travels to the NW, I am sure I could offer the same benefit to you in kind should the barbarian warrior attempt to waylay your scout.
I would also like to offer you a Hindu missionary, on the house, and some sort of border. I think the peaks would make a good starting point.
Tanks in advance,
Tanks? Oh, Krill. Can I just comment that I'm shocked to be in an alliance with him? He scares me a little, but I'm happier to play the early game with him than against him. I don't see the harm in open borders, but we don't have enough land knowledge to agree to borders. Stall him for 20 turns on that one? (Stall is the wrong word but I'm in a hurry) ... I'm inclined to accept the missionary with a good faith promise to spread to another city with our hammers within 15 turns of receiving the necessary techs, what do you think?
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Quote:Carthage,
And to business...would it be possible for Carthage to turn off tech right now? I'm chatting with other members of the Alliance, and if you can save up about 80+ gold by the start of turn 63, then you are the team that has to research Maths. At the worst, you can trade for pottery from Ottomans, and once you meet Portugal you can get Sailing from them, Meditation and Archery from Aztecs, Masonry from India, I'll trade the rest of the religious branch, Writing and Alphabet. It'll take time to meet all of them, but we are in a rush to get to catapults and HR...
In case you haven't been fully informed, then here is the list of teams researching current techs:
* Ottomans - IW, due for trade t72
* HRE - HBR, due t73 (maybe sooner with cottages)
* India - Masonry, Hunting
* Portugal - Fishing, Sailing
* Egypt - Writing, Alphabet, Myst, Poly, Priesthood
* Aztecs - Archery, Meditation
That leaves Currency, CoL, MC, Aesthetics as the important techs that aren't being researched. Unfortunately for Portugal, India and Aztecs, there will be quite alot of early game warfare going on (Aztecs are already being choked by axes), so they are focussing on that and not on teching right now, in an attempt to ward off Agg Rome (Portugals' job), Sumeria (Indias' job, and Sumeria are researching Alphabet) and and the Incans will be dealth with by Aztecs and hopefully Ottomans, so we'll have to play that by ear, but research Currency without maths is probably not a wise course of action.
If you can tell England to start saving gold as well, then they are the best team to make a run at Monarchy. If they have to save gold after t63 before they can research Monarchy in 1 go at 100% that is OK, as I should be able to research Monotheism by t69 to trade to them, to speed it up. They might have to research for a short while with only one prerequisite, but a fast HR equals sooner we can grow our cities.
I see no problem offering maths as our tech to give... I'd feel pretty comfortable saying we could join the party with maths around T73, that would give us 11 turns of research after the initial tech trades. Without gold or furs, we are at 17 turns of research for maths...
More to come later but time for housework now.
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Mr. Nice Guy Wrote:From Krill this morning:
Tanks? Oh, Krill. Can I just comment that I'm shocked to be in an alliance with him? He scares me a little, but I'm happier to play the early game with him than against him. I don't see the harm in open borders, but we don't have enough land knowledge to agree to borders. Stall him for 20 turns on that one? (Stall is the wrong word but I'm in a hurry) ... I'm inclined to accept the missionary with a good faith promise to spread to another city with our hammers within 15 turns of receiving the necessary techs, what do you think?
I don't really see a need to stall him. Could you perhaps explain your misgivings with Krill a little more fully? I know he is a very strong player, but at the same time, he is having to invest hammers in the Oracle instead of settlers at this point. Considering we will get all of the benefits from his oracling (the techs), I wouldn't actually trade our openings at this point.
And that missionary sounds awesome. I'd have him send it to horse city, as that would be a great place for a missionary and to build more missionaries. If he is offering us a free missionary (which I was actually going to suggest we trade for, but that works even better  ) I see no reason not to be friendly with him. Besides, I don't believe his intended path would reveal any cities, would it?
By the way, what do you think of setting research to 0% this turn? We are on t57 right? by self researching, we would get myst 3 turns before we would get it by trading (2 turns to research vs. t62, right?)...I'm not really sure that is worth it.
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Mr. Nice Guy Wrote:I see no problem offering maths as our tech to give... I'd feel pretty comfortable saying we could join the party with maths around T73, that would give us 11 turns of research after the initial tech trades. Without gold or furs, we are at 17 turns of research for maths...
More to come later but time for housework now.
And I agree that maths is good. I expect it will be less than t73, but that is just a hunch (we will pretty quickly have the capital, lakewood, and boring all working cottages) I think that and the gold will more than offset our founding the horse city. Oh, and the research screen right now isn't going to take into account our pre-req bonus on research.
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Shoot the Moon Wrote:By the way, what do you think of setting research to 0% this turn? We are on t57 right? by self researching, we would get myst 3 turns before we would get it by trading (2 turns to research vs. t62, right?)...I'm not really sure that is worth it.
Done. More to come after daughter's bedtime.
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Mr. Nice Guy Wrote:Done. More to come after daughter's bedtime.
Ok, might as well include that we have set research to 0% in our message to Krill then.
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Diplomacy time. I'm sending easy responses to our allies first, but want to post this to stew over:
Note from CHASM Wrote:To Team Nice Shot,
Thank you for the advice about Richard. It looks like we'll just barely get to Krill in time.
We would be happy to sign a NAP proposal. Since this alliance will last for quite some time, an auto-renewing NAP seems more appropriate than one of fixed length. Our proposed terms:
A 10t cooldown. If Team A cancels the NAP on turn X, then on turn X+10, only Team B would be allowed to declare war. On turn X+11, either team may attack.
The earliest the NAP could be canceled is T80.
43 EP maximum
No ROP for opposing units
Informing each team of new contacts, and arranging contacts upon request.
Our team has met DIM, Swiss (our first contact), Kyan (Babylon), and SleepingMoogle (Byzantium). Swiss, Kyan, SleepingMoogle, and ManiCatMarhsall (Maya) are all at the same latitude, and are in a group to trade Alphabet (Babylon), Math (Maya), HBR (Mali), and Iron Working (Byzantium) around T85. They offered for us to join their group, but we politely declined.
Mali's capital is 8E16S of Boring, and their 1st city of Uberfish is 7E13S. We do not know the location of Blake, their other city. A word of advice: when sending screenshots, it is not wise to include one's cultural territory in a screenshot. It's amazing how much data can be gleaned from one ill-thought through screenshot. *grin*. Speaking of which, barb warriors have been detected. Mali saw one on T50, and Byzantium has slain a warrior.
Babylon is to Mali's east, and the Maya are to their west. Byzantium is to the west of the Maya.
The NAP seems pretty straightforward, but I wonder how they define "opposing" units.
The really interesting stuff is what we have learned about our southern neighbors. They are already entrenched in their own alliance. They offered CHASM to join, but not us - at least, not right away. Could they be using the same stalling tactics with us that we are using with them? Swiss sends his diplomacy like clockwork at 11pm, so it will be interesting to see what comes tonight.
I also enjoyed the note about screenshots. I wonder if this was from an unfortunate experience, or just a word of caution? I know when I sent a screenshot to DIM recently, I was very careful to zoom in enough to eliminate the cultural borders, as well as to move the mouse away from Jordan so they wouldn't see health/promotion, as well as using paint to edit out all of the interface. They literally just got a picture of where a warrior stood, and had to use their own map knowledge to figure out the context. And that was with an ally! So yes, you can imagine how cautious I will be (if I ever) when I send a screenshot to anyone else!
Anyway, I post this note to ask what you think of their NAP terms. Would we be wise to accept it hands down, to try and shorten/lengthen/eliminate the cooldown, clarify the ROP clause... you name it. For now, I'll just send the easy e-mails.
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Mr. Nice Guy Wrote:Diplomacy time. I'm sending easy responses to our allies first, but want to post this to stew over:
The NAP seems pretty straightforward, but I wonder how they define "opposing" units.
The really interesting stuff is what we have learned about our southern neighbors. They are already entrenched in their own alliance. They offered CHASM to join, but not us - at least, not right away. Could they be using the same stalling tactics with us that we are using with them? Swiss sends his diplomacy like clockwork at 11pm, so it will be interesting to see what comes tonight.
I also enjoyed the note about screenshots. I wonder if this was from an unfortunate experience, or just a word of caution? I know when I sent a screenshot to DIM recently, I was very careful to zoom in enough to eliminate the cultural borders, as well as to move the mouse away from Jordan so they wouldn't see health/promotion, as well as using paint to edit out all of the interface. They literally just got a picture of where a warrior stood, and had to use their own map knowledge to figure out the context. And that was with an ally! So yes, you can imagine how cautious I will be (if I ever) when I send a screenshot to anyone else!
Anyway, I post this note to ask what you think of their NAP terms. Would we be wise to accept it hands down, to try and shorten/lengthen/eliminate the cooldown, clarify the ROP clause... you name it. For now, I'll just send the easy e-mails.
I like the NAP terms -- seems reasonable. Nice to know exact locations of other team's cities, that's for sure. Swiss's email should be interesting.
By the way, you may have already seen it in the IT thread, but I made a  move and accidentally clicked on the lurker thread instead of the email/IT thread. I don't think it should come to much (I didn't see anything, and it seems from previous people making the same mistake that people are understanding) but wanted to let you know anyway.
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Shoot the Moon Wrote:I don't really see a need to stall him. Could you perhaps explain your misgivings with Krill a little more fully? I know he is a very strong player, but at the same time, he is having to invest hammers in the Oracle instead of settlers at this point. Considering we will get all of the benefits from his oracling (the techs), I wouldn't actually trade our openings at this point.
That's what I get for hurrying through a post... When I mentioned stalling, I was referring to drawing up borders between our nations. What I meant was more along the lines of 'politely let him know that our exploration of the NW needs more work before we can sign any agreements' than 'stall him' .
I don't think I have any misgivings, per se, with Krill. I see him as a very smart player. To make a Big Brother reference, he reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother..._2%29#Will Will Kirby... who was very smart, and very deceptive. He had the ability to tell his opponents a known lie, and they would still find themselves believing him and doing his bidding. Krill reminds me of that sort of player, and I want to remain wary of that.
That having been said, I have so much positive respect for him that I would much rather be on his team than against him. And if we am on his team, I have no problem letting him play the alpha role. That gives us a chance to pet his ego but also an out should things turn sour... "it's all Krill's idea".
===Wow, I'm already using Big Brother references? Oh well, it was bound to happen eventually..===
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Mr. Nice Guy Wrote:That's what I get for hurrying through a post... When I mentioned stalling, I was referring to drawing up borders between our nations. What I meant was more along the lines of 'politely let him know that our exploration of the NW needs more work before we can sign any agreements' than 'stall him' .
I have no problem with using the word stall. I thought you meant stall the open borders agreement (which we shouldn't stall), not the land agreement. I agree we should stall him with and borders agreement, we simply don't know where he is. Funny mix up I guess.
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