CHAOS Realm

[Seravy]

So, if you think that there's a mistake, you should describe what it is specifically.

The mistake is my simplified formula doesn't work well for cases where the armor exceeds the attack strength, and warp lightning contains plenty of that.

See the above post for actual simulated numbers, these are what you'd get in an actual game unless the RNG is significantly different in the C++ used for MoM and Pascal used here.

It's probably worth adding that :
-Units that have + To Defend bonus will be pretty bad targets, even a single + To Def is enough for the spell to stop being superior to LB on average targets, +2 or more and it's worthless.
-Units that have Invulnerability are almost immune
-Elemental Armor, Bless, and Resist Elements all add defense against it and will likely negate the advantage over LB partially or entirely.
-The actual damage dealt is for a single figure target. Multi figure targets roll defense for each figure, reducing damage further but this effect should be equal on WL and LB, increased on Fire Bolt.

[Seravy]

Chaos Rift :
I think this spell is not good the way it is still. 5x 11 strength lightning bolts are not bad, it equals 10-15 damage per turn which is a lot. Where is the problem? A typical unit heals 1-3 hit points per turn while in the city. If there are 9 units, that means they recover 9-27 health per turn. Which is usually more than the damage. Even if a lucky shot manages to actually kill a unit, a new one will be produced to replace it, as the rate of units killed is slower.

Solution? Units in cities affected by Chaos Rift should be unable to naturally heal.

This makes the spell capable of reducing or eliminating defenses in pretty much every city not capable of producing a new 10+ health unit each turn...and even if they do they won't have any extras to send out for attacking you. Eventually the building producing them will get hit and production of new units stop.

Question is, should the number and strength of lightning bolts stay the same or be somewhat weaker?

[Nelphine]

I would keep them the same, and possibly go so far as to say units in the city can't heal naturally or through overland magic.

[GermanJoey]

Healing-prevention seems like an extremely strong effect to me. I mean, by itself it may be fine, but consider when you combine it with repeated firestorming.

Firestorm is already a very strong spell (and Blizzard is even stronger) because the AI loves to garrison its important cities with sprites, ghouls, and magicians. This is a pretty strong composition against a variety of invaders, but is pretty vulnerable to Firestorm. The one bulwark against Firestorm is that as the game goes later, the AI will eventually mix in some stronger units into its garrisons, especially in its capital. Heroes, Rare and Very Rare summons, high-end normal melee units, etc. Firestorm barely scratches these units. However, if the units in the city are unable to heal, repeated scratches will eventually draw real blood. That's coupled with the fact that as the weaker units in the city die off, the lit bolts from Chaos Rift will become more focused onto the remaining targets. Eventually, the city will be wiped, or perhaps only 1 or 2 strong units will remain. (and be much more vulnerable). Thus, if you can prevent the city from receiving reinforcements, then Chaos Rift will essentially allow you to take important cities without actually needing to fight dangerous battles. That feels way too strong for just a Rare... more what you might expect out of a Very Rare.

A non-healing effect is even more devastating with Meteor Storm, but I guess that's a Very Rare so its fine if the effect is powerful.

[GermanJoey]

By the way, if you're tweaking high-end Chaos Spells, what do you think of Great Wasting? I cast it in my last chaos game and thought that while the unrest effect was alright, the corruption effect was pretty weaksauce. Even after a dozen turns, very few of my enemies' tiles were corrupted, nor was much of the map in general.

[zitro1987]

Healing-prevention seems like an extremely strong effect to me. I mean, by itself it may be fine, but consider when you combine it with repeated firestorming.

Firestorm is already a very strong spell (and Blizzard is even stronger) because the AI loves to garrison its important cities with sprites, ghouls, and magicians. This is a pretty strong composition against a variety of invaders, but is pretty vulnerable to Firestorm. The one bulwark against Firestorm is that as the game goes later, the AI will eventually mix in some stronger units into its garrisons, especially in its capital. Heroes, Rare and Very Rare summons, high-end normal melee units, etc. Firestorm barely scratches these units. However, if the units in the city are unable to heal, repeated scratches will eventually draw real blood. That's coupled with the fact that as the weaker units in the city die off, the lit bolts from Chaos Rift will become more focused onto the remaining targets. Eventually, the city will be wiped, or perhaps only 1 or 2 strong units will remain. (and be much more vulnerable). Thus, if you can prevent the city from receiving reinforcements, then Chaos Rift will essentially allow you to take important cities without actually needing to fight dangerous battles. That feels way too strong for just a Rare... more what you might expect out of a Very Rare.

A non-healing effect is even more devastating with Meteor Storm, but I guess that's a Very Rare so its fine if the effect is powerful.

How about slowing healing rate down to 10% a turn in the city? (alternative coding: no animist guild or healer effect in affected square). This is a more tactical/strategic option that counters certain defensive strategies. Added nice bonus is negating 'regeneration' in target square.

The chaos rift damage effect could then stay the same.

[Seravy]

By the way, if you're tweaking high-end Chaos Spells, what do you think of Great Wasting? I cast it in my last chaos game and thought that while the unrest effect was alright, the corruption effect was pretty weaksauce. Even after a dozen turns, very few of my enemies' tiles were corrupted, nor was much of the map in general.

The AI is pretty good at using shamans now, and there are two city buffs that clear corruption near cities. Maybe that was your problem?
Also, map size matters. Larger maps take longer to corrupt as it's done at a fixed rate.

Chaos Rift might be too good this way, I have my doubts as well. I'm testing it right now. (one thing is certain so far, it's a pretty good spell to have when other players are not hostile. It can cause nice damage without having to start a war.)

Edit : out of the 3 cities I put Chaos Rift on
-One was empty, everything died - this one mainly had garbage units in it originally.
-Another had 5 almost entirely unhurt chimeras while other units died (had some 1-2 figure leftovers). - Not sure why the chimeras did not get damaged at all. I find the chance that the same one got always hit and died and a new one got summoned meanwhile extremely unlikely
-Last one, a (weak) wizard's capital. Only 7 units inside, but 6 fully healed. There is a healer hero so it most likely negated most of the damage done.

Since it was able to bring a city down to zero units and keep it that way for the rest of the game, I think this effect is indeed overpowered. And yes, using it plus firestorm is too strong. Time to undo this change and come up with something better. (do we even need something better? a free earthquake every 8 turns is actually pretty amazing if you use it for that purpose...only the unit damage part sucks. Actually it might not...if you firestorm the weak units away it'll finish off the strong ones because there are fewer units left...)

[zitro1987]

What do you think of that idea of mine that negates additional healing effects like Animist Guild and Healer / limiting healing rate to just 10-15% in that city?

It targets certain defensive strategies involving self-healing but is not overpowered. One can take advantage using it with firestorm (which is an expensive spell with 800 research cost), but the combo is not ridiculous in strength.

Note: if this approach is used, the spell will be more damage oriented than city-oriented. a 1% drop in building destruction chance may be needed for balance.

[Seravy]

What do you think of that idea of mine that negates additional healing effects like Animist Guild and Healer / limiting healing rate to just 10-15% in that city?

That 10% is what causes the spell to not do real damage, so it wouldn't make much difference.
A stag beetle heals 2 from 10%, 9 of them heal 18 and the spell does less damage than that.
Something weaker, like a centaur would only heal 1.6, which is still 9*1.6=14.4 healing vs ~12-15 damage.
I think I will leave the spell unchanged, the building destruction part is actually quite powerful (5% means each building lives an average of 20 turns only!) and the damage...can't be strong because the AI has no answers to that, while the human player has plenty. I was trying to use it for the wrong purpose, this is actually meant for cities you don't plan to attack.

[Seravy]

I'm considering to make "Halved attack" on Warp Creature to include all attack types, not just melee. The spell is pretty worthless on units that have a nonmelee attack otherwise.