Unfinished business - SG for improving at Civ 4 (sic)

[Zalson]

Our plan for marble is to plant a city on the marble

[shallow_thought]

Always so many competing priorities. It's what makes Civ Civ. Moslty I was just asking about wonders and GPP to see what you were thinking -- there are possibilities with both, but you do have lots of other things you need right now.

MoM is always nice to have, both short term and long term; extended late game golden ages can be hugely productive in a large, developed empire. And the Great Library is often a nice way to get some GPP going when you don't have an obvious GP farm city site -- it is a hammers-to-GPP play, like the whip is a food-to-hammers play or the Oracle is a hammers-to-research play. Really, a sizable portion of Civ IV seems to be about finding the best ways to convert one thing into another thing.

Re Masonry, I read that as you already have the tech (researched in one turn) rather than putting one turn into it. Is that correct? I agree with RefSteel about getting the marble quarried -- I sometimes find myself making lots of grand plans for wonders and then realizing I never actually got around to researching the tech and improving the tile. 

For clarification - we were able to research it in one turn (after getting Myst for the Stele - both techs were off our original plan), so I grabbed it. This was for military purposes, in case we absolutely need to rush walls, and to add a prereq to construction (I'll expand on that a little in my full report soon - hopefully). I don't think we have the worker labour to get chops ready and marble quarried in time to let us do a stylish 1T MoM as soon as Calendar comes in (sadly). The current workers are preparing chops ahead of quarrying simply because they were already NE of the capital (chopping forges at CP), and need to work their way back to the marble (better micro plans almost certainly existed). Always need more workers!

I'd love MoM, but think that gaining more cities (and not losing any!) comes first; I suggest that we prepare a marble enhanced multi-chop and see where we stand.

Need to help wife put christmas decs and tree away , aim to finish report later this eve.

[shallow_thought]

Apparently I'm not required in the delicate work of putting decorations away in neat rows .

T100: Before, ending turn, some changes:
- Science on, to get sailing in 1t
- Switch to library in FD to start culture push
- Start worker in XP (forge is 20t away slow built if I max growth, so I'm going to whip a worker, drag a friend over and chop some forests)

T111: Charley goes Buddhist. Huh - that makes him, Qin and Monty. It's nice that the Buddhist block is currently at civil war, but could be longer term trouble.

We get Sailing, I set research for Mysticsm, due in 1t at 50% science; I want that Stele started next turn, but can't afford 100% science.
I move one chariot towards the centre of the Empire; I'm a bit nervous about the single warrior at our new city. Do AI scouts fogbust? There are a couple running around.
Move one axe towards the sheep pasture just outside Cuman, to bolster chariot stack on defense.
Worker near YM heads for forest near CP to get chopping.

2-whip poor old CP; it will regrow even slower as I choose to work grassland cottage over grassland farm.

2-whip library in FD, stacking unhappiness. Clear queue so that overflow can be put into Stele

NOTE: may need to go back and document what was in build queues at start of set.

T112: Great scientist and Great General born abroad.

Start Stele at FD, forge at CP. Worker starts to chop at CP, his new friend moves to join him.

Bananas chopped at Brocken; decide not to farm them as Cal is up soon. Aim to cottage all river grassland and work them over next few turns (four workers here makes that easy).

Caleuche founded on coast. Start workboat. One worker moves to forest to chop, others camp furs as they can start that this turn.

Boudicca still wants our city for peace; this never changes all set .

Start researching Calendar, turn science off. Our break-even drops to below 40% with the new city, with Cal in 10 turns; I'm not sure what happened, but this gets a lot better by the end of the set (cottages at Brocken, maturing cottages elsewhere, market at YM would be the good answer; lots of KTB from everyone else getting Calendar would be the bad one...).

113: Izzy joins Boudicca in Judaism; this is not good news, but at least we were planning on a war-based game anyway. Boudicca takes Khazak (barb city east of CP). She also sends a settler party to the coast.



This is too tasty to ignore. I move some axes and the spear out of XP and try to swing them round between the silver and the peak; I bring workers across ready to road under them next turn (this proves to be a total waste of worker turns; I thought I might value being able to get forces back to XP faster if I did end up with troops on the ice or copper, but this never became relevant - and I knew two workers can't 1t a tundra road, so the idea was probably ).

T114: Spanish stack splits, with settler bolting for home, one chariot heading N, one walking right up to my stack. Thanks - 98% spear victory comes off! I do now have a problem making sure that my axes, workers and wounded spear can stay out of range of the other chariot for the next two turns, so most of them end up retreating, hence wasting those worker turns...

Furs come online, making happiness problems a non-issue for the next few turns (otherwise I would have to stagnate XP).

T115: A barb worker, fleeing Khazak wonders near our borders. I dash a chariot over to lay out the welcome mat.

T116: Grabbed barb worker. Hey, we're top of the scoreboard! - it doesn't last, sadly.

Monty wants an allay against Charley. Nope.

Boudicca gets a great merchant, and Khazak comes out of resistance. I don't like the new, broader border, so I start thinking of more military. Micro BaS for a bit more production so we can do a 2-pop whip and grab the overflow in the three turns as last whip wears off.



T117: Workboat chopped at Caleuche; sadly 1t to late to get to fish as borders pop (I hate tundra). Start a granary, eye up remaining forest for chops. A barb archer wonders out of Cuman towards the new city; I move warrior into city, if I have to I can upgrade him next turn (we now have the cash).



T118: Charley adopts HR. Barb archer does nothing. Boudicca sends a stack our way.

2-whip forge at XP; plenty of overflow for an axe.
2-whip queued market at YM (forge slow built last turn); I want to let the cap grow, but we're looking at working unimproved tiles, and there are no good candidates to improve until Cal comes in; more overflow.

T119: Monty asks us to stop trading with Mansa. Nope. I really hope he's engaged in a death match with Charley, because I'd bet we're next on his list...

Boudicca's stack looks like it might be heading for BaS, not XP. That would not be good.

2-whip forge at BaS; more yummy overflow.

I realise that we can research masonry in 1t. Walls are not great for any civ, and still worse for a creative one that already has 40% defence in the target cities (which are also on hills), but it's nice to give the next player the option of whipping them in. We want it anyway, so I slot it in and turn science on.

T120: Boudicca's chariot caught up with her stack last turn and I didn't realise. It can hit a lone chariot W of XP, and she has a C1, we don't. Dead chariot . At least the stack has swung towards XP, where the axes have been fortifying since the settler hunt. It would be good to hit the stack on flat ground, but XP is separated from the rest of the empire, and the stack, by rivers. Attacking across the river gives bad odds, and crossing the river takes up a turn... ugh. I get frustrated and move one axeman across the river to try and have him join up with the chariots and any new axemen so we can at least consider hitting them on the flat if Boudicca is dumb. I suspect that this was not clever, as he now looks terribly out of position.
Good news is that Granny doesn't have to cross any rivers, so can take out wounded chariot and move back to safety (this screenshot is a repeat of one in previous summary).



Masonry is in, and I'm pleasantly surprised to find out we have enough gold for Calendar in 4t. That doesn't match my calculations from a few turns back, but I'm not complaining.

Thoughts:
- Why does Boudicca always turn up late in my turnset? Ugh.
- Not having bridges is crippling active defence around XP.
- I've abandoned the pasture guard; this could be very bad news if Cuman flips soon and we don't have enough troops to guard it / kill the barb archers . Will we get some free garrison when it flips?
- I keep forgetting to anything with EP, so please check this next turn (sorry)

Research is on Calendar and may be on 90% for no good reason (almost certainly a misclick) - please check in actual save! I'd consider Construction instead for bridges and cats. Also, Mansa will trade us ivory for a couple of happy luxuries, and we have spare gold, silver and nearly furs. HBR and wellies could solve Boudicca entirely...
But we do really want Calendar to open up more improvements; we also want CoL for courthouses, and Aesthetics->Lit for epics and maybe GLib, and I'm beginning to want Civil Service, which is long way off. Choices, choices (see also haphazard's comments).

Flipping around techs and looking at GNP in demos suggests to me that someone has Calendar (we get a few more GNP than for HBR, and lot fewer than for Archery). I'd love to get MoM but would not suggest bending ourselves out of shape, as it could easily go (Mansa?).



Apologies for no city round-up, but I'm out of time.

[Brian Shanahan]

I see the save, it's a bit of a bother on Khazakh, would have been nice to get that city. I'll have a look tomorrow and post my thoughts.

Oh, and Mansa's a blithering idiot for spreading Judaism to Izzy.

[haphazard1]

Lots happening in this latest set. Interesting....

Charlemagne adopting Buddhism while at war with the founder -- maybe he captured a Buddhist city or two and this tipped him into converting? Great general being spawned somewhere indicates some fighting is going on, not just a phony war, so maybe. If he and Monty ever make peace, shared religion might prevent another war. But they have to stop fighting first, which might not happpen. Wonder which way Qin will go?

Mansa and Izzy...hmmm. Izzy can be a useful ally if you share a religion with her. But mostly I try to stay clear of the crazy lady.

Boudica...that settler was heading for a truly terrible location, scaring it off may have inadvertently done her a favor. She has Gallics, so she can't need copper that badly. Although maybe she has iron and no copper? The AI does tend to just want strategic resources even when it already has an alternative metal.

Nice observation on Calendar. Sadly, MoM may be very hard to get at this point. Although it is one of the wonders that works just as well if you capture it.

Rivers pre-Construction do make for some tactical difficulties. As do AI 2-movers picking off exposed units. Oh well. Hard to protect everything sometimes.

Overall you are doing well. No major losses from the war with Boudica, even if it has disrupted some of your planning, and your cities are getting some important infrastructure built. Some more key techs and some additional military perhaps, and all kinds of possibilities will open up. Or something crazy could happen like Izzy going insane and declaring war. Or one of seeveral other Ais. Although hopefully Charlemagne and Monty keep each other busy.

[RefSteel]

Wait, wait, it looks like I missed something way more important than the fact you'd already teched Masonry!

The seventh and latest city in the empire, Caleuche, is another coastal plant named for another ghost ship, depicted here by delacruz-art of deviantart.com:


"The most popular and widespread belief is in the ghost ship. Over the surface of the sea or from the depths of its frigid waters appears the Caleuche ... This is an eternal ship, made of a mysterious material that allows it to become invisible. The Caleuche can approach another ship at the speed of light, and rather than crash into it, it passes right through the other vessel. It is accompanied by the sound of anchor chains and seductively beautiful orchestra music." -David Petreman, from "The Chilean Ghost Ship: The Caleuche" in Into the Mainstream: Essays on Spanish American and Latino Literature and Culture, edited by Jorge Febles.

Just to offer a sense of how varied ghost myths can be: The English-language Wikipedia (on multiple related pages) is convinced that Caleuche is a party ship, to which drowned soldiers are taken by benevolent figures (three particular figures, but I guess acting kind of like mer-Valkyries?) to live their afterlives in dance and merriment (more or less). In the many stories recounted by Petreman in the quoted text, the Caleuche is basically run by warlocks to steal sailors away for their fell purposes, without necessarily bothering to wait for them to drown first. This isn't because Wikipedia is wrong; it's because myths and folklore about the same entities are retold by different storytellers (and sometimes even the same ones) in countless different ways.

[haphazard1]

Very interesting stuff, RefSteel! I was not familiar with this particular legend, at least by this name -- ghost ships in general appear in many forms in myth, of course. As you note, sometimes even one source will provide very different takes on the same material. Always nice to learn something new.

[Brian Shanahan]

@Ref, kind of like how in England and the US fairys are cutesie little things that are great to play with, whereas in the original mythology they're a bunch of evil bastids.

Thoughts on the game.

Firstly, Boudica is a bit stronger than us on the graphs, so I think I'll be getting units out of Bean a Sidhe, Christmas Past and Xmas Present for the set. If I don't need the overflows for the units, I'd like to put them into markets at Christmas and Xmas, just to keep them ticking over. If things go well, I'm considering just walking up to Gergovia and seeing if I can raze it. If I could get Khazakh as well it'd be gravy.

There are probably too many workers at Caleuche so I'll pull one back to Yaqob.

On the tech front, I think its time to go to Civil Service via Code of Laws (maybe throwing in priesthood for the extra known tech bonus). We can get in the cheap courthouses and Maces would be a nice thing to stock up on while going up the ladder. After that we've two options, a straight push to Education for either Liberalism or Gunpowder or a slotting in of Aesthetics for the national wonders before chasing the free tech.

The game itself is pretty routine, keep defending against the Celts until we see an opening, keep developing the lands (and hopefully expanding), and push outwards when we can.

I'm still mystified about Izzy, from what we can see of her lands she should still be Hindu, three largish cities with that religion only that we can see on the map. I wonder if she were bribed into it?

I had an idea, we could pretty quickly get the Hanging Gardens if we were willing to sacrifice the woods at Yaqob Marley (unless it goes first of course). Whip the Barracks next turn into the Aqueduct, and the chop like mad. It'll need three or four workers to pull off quickly, but it's doable. And the HG population will come in very handy indeed (and you never know, we'll be in a shout for a GEng down the line as well with the GPP). If not, I think Yaqob's best for pushing out a settler or two to fill the best of our back lines.

So what do you all think?

[shallow_thought]

Very interesting stuff, RefSteel! I was not familiar with this particular legend, at least by this name -- ghost ships in general appear in many forms in myth, of course. As you note, sometimes even one source will provide very different takes on the same material. Always nice to learn something new.

In all honesty, I'd never heard of it either. I just wanted a maritime ghost and googled... I didn't know about the alternative versions of the tale though!

@Ref, kind of like how in England and the US fairys are cutesie little things that are great to play with, whereas in the original mythology they're a bunch of evil bastids.

Thoughts on the game.

Firstly, Boudica is a bit stronger than us on the graphs, so I think I'll be getting units out of Bean a Sidhe, Christmas Past and Xmas Present for the set. If I don't need the overflows for the units, I'd like to put them into markets at Christmas and Xmas, just to keep them ticking over. If things go well, I'm considering just walking up to Gergovia and seeing if I can raze it. If I could get Khazakh as well it'd be gravy.

There are probably too many workers at Caleuche so I'll pull one back to Yaqob.

On the tech front, I think its time to go to Civil Service via Code of Laws (maybe throwing in priesthood for the extra known tech bonus). We can get in the cheap courthouses and Maces would be a nice thing to stock up on while going up the ladder. After that we've two options, a straight push to Education for either Liberalism or Gunpowder or a slotting in of Aesthetics for the national wonders before chasing the free tech.

The game itself is pretty routine, keep defending against the Celts until we see an opening, keep developing the lands (and hopefully expanding), and push outwards when we can.

I'm still mystified about Izzy, from what we can see of her lands she should still be Hindu, three largish cities with that religion only that we can see on the map. I wonder if she were bribed into it?

I had an idea, we could pretty quickly get the Hanging Gardens if we were willing to sacrifice the woods at Yaqob Marley (unless it goes first of course). Whip the Barracks next turn into the Aqueduct, and the chop like mad. It'll need three or four workers to pull off quickly, but it's doable. And the HG population will come in very handy indeed (and you never know, we'll be in a shout for a GEng down the line as well with the GPP). If not, I think Yaqob's best for pushing out a settler or two to fill the best of our back lines.

So what do you all think?

Yeah, now that Boudicca has finished with Khazak, I'm expecting to see more units heading our way. I think that the units we have in the pipeline could be enough, maybe with an extra couple of spears?

Construction would be a force multipler - we could do a bit more zonal defense (plus cats of course). But it doesn't help the economy. Boudicca is not scary, but she is annoying. I'm (another) natural builder, but we could throw out our quiet plans: Construction->HBR + ivory trade with Mansa could make us a short-term superpower (but not until the next turnset, or even the one after), but it's not my natural play.

If we stick with calm growth, I'd still go Cal before CoL. We really want to improve a few tiles (banana, spices, silks). abThen skip Monarchy and head straight for CS, just as you say. We'd be wanting to grab an Academy, possibly move caps to Brocken??

I think HG is a stretch, particularly without stone. The marble / lots of forests may be a tempting trap; off the top of my head we have a plains hill sheep, dry rice and grassland cow (up north) unclaimed, along with dyes and a second iron. Those forests could be turned into settlers and workers; after consideration, I think I might prefer that to even the MoM. And in back-of-the-envelope maths, four new cities would match the HG pop increase pretty quickly...

[RefSteel]

I had to look up the Caleuche as well, but that's down to my relative ignorance of South American cultures, not the fame of the ship. It seems to be a big part of the central local myth in Chile.

And to Brian's point about Fairies, in addition to some of the stories in the aforementioned Yeats collection, Susanna Clarke's books (a collection of short stories and the huge novel Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell) do an excellent job of characterizing the old-school Fairies Brian was talking about. (Strange and Norrell is very long, and very, very English, and unlike some of the books we've referenced here, most have likely heard of it, but it's also very well written and uses its length and scope well.)

On HG: GermanJoey did a good analysis of this one recently, and unless you're desperate for health (not the case here, I think) and think it will fall soon, the Hanging Gardens is basically never worth building with just 7 cities. I think 9 is the point where you start to break even as non-IND with Stone - you need about 13 with neither Stone nor Ind - and even that doesn't take the risks into account: If you lose it, it ends up worse than building Wealth, since you don't get any failgold for the (expensive and semi-worthless) Aqueduct. At 7 cities, forgoing HG to put the same overflow, chops, and so forth into units, settlers, and workers you would otherwise have whipped in various cities probably nets you more population (or more production by whipping other stuff anyway) than the HG itself!