I'm having trouble parsing out the above statement, but I'll try to answer what I think are you questions. Because of the formatting issues, I'm going to simply copy paste the lines from above and put then in normal quotes here.
"I still don't understand why you were so uncertain on Winston. Wolves don't post a tiered reads list like he did under no pressure, he seemed like a town trying to hunt when everyone else seemed town. "
I have two problems with this statement. First is that you're attributing town points for "doing something no scum would do" which is a good reason for scum to do it. It's the ultimate WIFOM argument, and it gets nowhere. My next issue however, is that even were I sure he was town, it wouldn't have changed my night actions. Scanning him would have done nothing, as it would have only told me that he was town, or if, unlikely from my perspective, he was scum. Third, I have trouble buying that you genuinely believed him town based on the limited number of posts he had. Neutral sure, town? I have trouble believing a townie would do that.
"As for criticism of the wagon, I thought you stated that there had to have been 1 because of 2 things. One, you refused to consider Novice being my buddy for no apparent reason, even though we fit pretty well together given his unprompted defense of me. Two, you, as mentioned, don't believe that 3 town can be that wrong. I have seen D1 mislynches go off before with zero mafia on the wagon, so you refusing to consider this makes it seem like you are merely bending the truth to make it easier to lie, with your partner Gaz being on it. Convince the audience (i.e. Novice and Lew) that there was scum on the wagon pls."
So lets address your first point there. All I said IIRC about the wagon, was that I would be surprised if there wasn't at least 1 scum on it. I think you're conflating different arguments here. My view of novice as not being your scumbuddy A: hasn't been completely ruled out, please note where I prefer to lynch you first, then get the chance to scan, rather than lynch Lewwyn first. I'm positive that Lewwyn is the scum, but I'm taking precautions in case I'm wrong. B: While novice was defending you yes, he was doing so in an incredibly towny way, something I have mentioned more than a few times here but you seem disinterested in engaging with. Town can defend scum, it happens. C: I didn't say 3 town can't be wrong, I said I found unlikely that at least one scum wasn't in on it, and I think that is a reasonable feeling. As to convincing "my audience" that scum was on the wagon, I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one with that feeling. Scum would have to get pretty lucky in such a small game to get three townies to lynch a fourth without interfering.
"I don't really know how to handle your next rebuttal, other than, well, what could you be doing with considering other scum other than looking for my buddy? I still need convincing that claiming that the guy who has had trouble being here is scum is anything other than looking for the easiest followup lynch. Moot point anyway since after I die it is game over."
My feeling that Lewwyn is scum isn't based on his attendance, but rather on his engagement when he is here. It's not towny in nature, and it's going head to head against a very towny gaz, whom I also know for a fact is town. Further, the only other possible scum in this equation is novice, and if I have to compare novice's work this game to Lewwyn's, its a really quick decision.
"I still disagree that trying to get even more knowledge out of a scan beats scanning someone you know will live, but you are pretty obstinate on this point and no one is willing to be convinced by my posts, so no point hammering on this one point any harder."
You have repeatedly refused to engage with my reasons for why I felt Gaz was likely to survive, but I'll bite one last time because you seem exhausted. The conflict between Gaz and Lewwyn was too good a situation for scum to ignore. There are four possible scenarios here.
1. Gaz and Lewwyn are both town. Why kill one of them, when you can play them against each other on day two?
2. Gaz and Lewwyn are both scum. Clearly they aren't going to kill each other.
3. Gaz is scum and Lewwyn is town. Gaz obviously doesn't die in this scenario.
4. Gaz is town and Lewwyn is scum. This is the only situation where there is any question about whether or not Gaz dies. Even here however it's unlikely. The conflict between Gaz and Lewwyn going into day 2 escalates just like it did. It becomes a distracting point. You fake claim cop, and now there are two big arguments going on. As scum you only have to win one. Further, killing Gaz shows him to be town, removing a contentious player from the list. Finally it gives credibility to all of his arguments, as coming from at least a town perspective, and makes Lewwyn look really bad. All told, that's a whole bunch of reasons not to kill him.
"I wasn't complaining that you didn't breadcrumb, I was just not seeing why you said that that post was breadcrumbing. Thanks for explaining, still feels like a post you made earlier with no plan to use as breadcrumbing, but energy fading and willingness to argue is too."
I think when you make a post that stands out as being incongruous with every other post you make, it stands out, if only once it's pointed out. Hence the point.
"Rant inside."
Even when you're town you're a welcome addition to our games, as you provide humor, some pretty solid investigatory skills, and are very active. Don't quit man, we love you
As ATPG posted on the other board, this game is town's to lose, scum shouldn't feel bad when it happens. Even if you're losing every game as town on other boards, you're very likely not the cause. If town is playing badly enough for one person's game to throw them off, then it's still town's fault as a whole. Besides which, from what I saw last game, your town game is absolutely improving from where it was when you started. Your scum game seems to be going places too.
"To close off, I just have one more question for my absent audience. Why the hell do I claim a roleblocked cop? I am having trouble thinking of a possible weaker claim. Even if as mafia I have decided that I have no choice but to counter the cop claim, why don't I just say that I wasn't roleblocked? I either get an ally or can explain why I'm not lynching my buddy, and alternatively can push a different lynch. I made the worst possible mafia play, and while I might be stupid I don't think I'm quite that bad."
You claim cop because no matter what you claim, you're running into the real person. I don't think you thought I was the cop, that maybe Gaz was, and you were hoping for a showdown with him where both you and Lewwyn could pile on. We still don't know what if anything Lewwyn would have claimed, but regardless of what it was, he too would have run afoul of a townie with that role. As Gaz said, scum got hurt pretty bad when both lynch and kill were vanilla. Not so much because they didn't take out a power role, but because it left exactly one of each role on the table. If Scum had gotten a cop or doc, then there would be two VT's and the persuasion would have been easier. As is, your back was against the wall, so you took the best claim you could think of.
"I still don't understand why you were so uncertain on Winston. Wolves don't post a tiered reads list like he did under no pressure, he seemed like a town trying to hunt when everyone else seemed town. "
I have two problems with this statement. First is that you're attributing town points for "doing something no scum would do" which is a good reason for scum to do it. It's the ultimate WIFOM argument, and it gets nowhere. My next issue however, is that even were I sure he was town, it wouldn't have changed my night actions. Scanning him would have done nothing, as it would have only told me that he was town, or if, unlikely from my perspective, he was scum. Third, I have trouble buying that you genuinely believed him town based on the limited number of posts he had. Neutral sure, town? I have trouble believing a townie would do that.
"As for criticism of the wagon, I thought you stated that there had to have been 1 because of 2 things. One, you refused to consider Novice being my buddy for no apparent reason, even though we fit pretty well together given his unprompted defense of me. Two, you, as mentioned, don't believe that 3 town can be that wrong. I have seen D1 mislynches go off before with zero mafia on the wagon, so you refusing to consider this makes it seem like you are merely bending the truth to make it easier to lie, with your partner Gaz being on it. Convince the audience (i.e. Novice and Lew) that there was scum on the wagon pls."
So lets address your first point there. All I said IIRC about the wagon, was that I would be surprised if there wasn't at least 1 scum on it. I think you're conflating different arguments here. My view of novice as not being your scumbuddy A: hasn't been completely ruled out, please note where I prefer to lynch you first, then get the chance to scan, rather than lynch Lewwyn first. I'm positive that Lewwyn is the scum, but I'm taking precautions in case I'm wrong. B: While novice was defending you yes, he was doing so in an incredibly towny way, something I have mentioned more than a few times here but you seem disinterested in engaging with. Town can defend scum, it happens. C: I didn't say 3 town can't be wrong, I said I found unlikely that at least one scum wasn't in on it, and I think that is a reasonable feeling. As to convincing "my audience" that scum was on the wagon, I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one with that feeling. Scum would have to get pretty lucky in such a small game to get three townies to lynch a fourth without interfering.
"I don't really know how to handle your next rebuttal, other than, well, what could you be doing with considering other scum other than looking for my buddy? I still need convincing that claiming that the guy who has had trouble being here is scum is anything other than looking for the easiest followup lynch. Moot point anyway since after I die it is game over."
My feeling that Lewwyn is scum isn't based on his attendance, but rather on his engagement when he is here. It's not towny in nature, and it's going head to head against a very towny gaz, whom I also know for a fact is town. Further, the only other possible scum in this equation is novice, and if I have to compare novice's work this game to Lewwyn's, its a really quick decision.
"I still disagree that trying to get even more knowledge out of a scan beats scanning someone you know will live, but you are pretty obstinate on this point and no one is willing to be convinced by my posts, so no point hammering on this one point any harder."
You have repeatedly refused to engage with my reasons for why I felt Gaz was likely to survive, but I'll bite one last time because you seem exhausted. The conflict between Gaz and Lewwyn was too good a situation for scum to ignore. There are four possible scenarios here.
1. Gaz and Lewwyn are both town. Why kill one of them, when you can play them against each other on day two?
2. Gaz and Lewwyn are both scum. Clearly they aren't going to kill each other.
3. Gaz is scum and Lewwyn is town. Gaz obviously doesn't die in this scenario.
4. Gaz is town and Lewwyn is scum. This is the only situation where there is any question about whether or not Gaz dies. Even here however it's unlikely. The conflict between Gaz and Lewwyn going into day 2 escalates just like it did. It becomes a distracting point. You fake claim cop, and now there are two big arguments going on. As scum you only have to win one. Further, killing Gaz shows him to be town, removing a contentious player from the list. Finally it gives credibility to all of his arguments, as coming from at least a town perspective, and makes Lewwyn look really bad. All told, that's a whole bunch of reasons not to kill him.
"I wasn't complaining that you didn't breadcrumb, I was just not seeing why you said that that post was breadcrumbing. Thanks for explaining, still feels like a post you made earlier with no plan to use as breadcrumbing, but energy fading and willingness to argue is too."
I think when you make a post that stands out as being incongruous with every other post you make, it stands out, if only once it's pointed out. Hence the point.
"Rant inside."
Even when you're town you're a welcome addition to our games, as you provide humor, some pretty solid investigatory skills, and are very active. Don't quit man, we love you
As ATPG posted on the other board, this game is town's to lose, scum shouldn't feel bad when it happens. Even if you're losing every game as town on other boards, you're very likely not the cause. If town is playing badly enough for one person's game to throw them off, then it's still town's fault as a whole. Besides which, from what I saw last game, your town game is absolutely improving from where it was when you started. Your scum game seems to be going places too.
"To close off, I just have one more question for my absent audience. Why the hell do I claim a roleblocked cop? I am having trouble thinking of a possible weaker claim. Even if as mafia I have decided that I have no choice but to counter the cop claim, why don't I just say that I wasn't roleblocked? I either get an ally or can explain why I'm not lynching my buddy, and alternatively can push a different lynch. I made the worst possible mafia play, and while I might be stupid I don't think I'm quite that bad."
You claim cop because no matter what you claim, you're running into the real person. I don't think you thought I was the cop, that maybe Gaz was, and you were hoping for a showdown with him where both you and Lewwyn could pile on. We still don't know what if anything Lewwyn would have claimed, but regardless of what it was, he too would have run afoul of a townie with that role. As Gaz said, scum got hurt pretty bad when both lynch and kill were vanilla. Not so much because they didn't take out a power role, but because it left exactly one of each role on the table. If Scum had gotten a cop or doc, then there would be two VT's and the persuasion would have been easier. As is, your back was against the wall, so you took the best claim you could think of.
