Retorts again, especially Artificier and Runemaster

[Seravy]

It has been mentioned in the mechanics thread so...how does this sound?

Option A

Artificier
Arcane spells (excluding Spell of Mastery) cost 25% less to cast and is 25% faster to research. Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known.

Runemaster
Spell of Mastery costs 25% less to cast and is 25% faster to research. The wizard's spells are +200% more resistant to dispelling (total of 3x resistance) and the wizard's attempts to dispel other wizards' spells is twice as effective.

Option B

Artificier
Arcane spells cost 25% less to cast. Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known.

Runemaster
Arcane spells are 25% faster to research. The wizard's spells are +200% more resistant to dispelling (total of 3x resistance) and the wizard's attempts to dispel other wizards' spells is twice as effective.

Option C

Artificier
Arcane spells cost 25% less to cast. Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known.

Runemaster
Arcane spells are 25% faster to research. The wizard's spells are +100% more resistant to dispelling (total of 3x resistance) and the wizard's attempts to dispel other wizards' spells is twice as effective.

Option D

Artificier
Arcane spells (excluding Spell of Mastery) cost 25% less to cast and is 25% faster to research. Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known.

Runemaster
Spell of Mastery costs 25% less to cast and is 25% faster to research. The wizard's spells are +100% more resistant to dispelling and the wizard's attempts to dispel other wizards' spells is twice as effective.


btw Runemaster does not boost "counter" powers but boosts resistance to them. Maybe it should also double "counter" power? Or not apply to counter resistance? This is somewhat inconsistent as is. However twice as hard to dispel Suppress Magic that also has twice the power is probably too strong, same for Counter Magic.

This also affects Specialist, currently it makes spells twice as hard to counter, but if Runemaster is changed not to, this should follow it.

Other retorts that could use some discussion :
-Tactician, is a bit on the overpowered side?
-Specialist, same, I can't remember the last time I played a single realm without this, I rather give up having 10 (or 9, or 8) books. I think we had a discussion about it already though and decided not to change it.
-Cult Leader, it's good and balanced, yet I don't know the last time I actually used it. Maybe the cost reduction on the cathedral can make it a better choice? Problem might be that I always preferred WGs to Cathedrals and this doesn't work on those.

[zitro1987]

Specialist is probably too strong because of the +100% dispel resistance. Maybe drop to +50%

Tactician is fairly balanced.

I kind of like Option A, but with an easier to understand and more even/balanced +150% resist and dispel strength rather than +200%/+100%

[Seravy]

Specialist is probably too strong because of the +100% dispel resistance. Maybe drop to +50%

Tactician is fairly balanced.

I kind of like Option A, but with an easier to understand and more even/balanced +150% resist and dispel strength rather than +200%/+100%

I definitely do not want to improve dispel strength any further. The goal is to make enchantment based strategies perform better with the retort, as is, there are still too many enchantments lost, +100% doesn't seem enough. Making dispels stronger would work against this goal if the enemy picks Runemaster as well.
I'm not sure it's necessary though, which is why there is option C and D.
However, I'm usually picking this for dispel resistance, and 2 picks are quite expensive for +100% (which is the same bonus Specialist has but cannot be used that way with 2 realms..where picks are even less available for retorts).

Another option would be to have runemaster only grant dispel resistance for 1 pick and another retort the dispel strength and/or faster SoM but that would be a ton of work and I have no idea which retort could be good for that.

[Seravy]

How about these?

Option E

Arcane Mastery - 2 picks
All Arcane spells costs 25% less to research and cast, Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known. All dispelling type spells cast by the wizard are twice as powerful.

Runemaster - 1 pick
All spells cast by the wizard are twice as hard to dispel.

Option F

Runemaster - 2 picks
All Arcane spells costs 25% less to research and cast, Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known. All spells cast by the wizard are twice as hard to dispel.

Annihilator - 1 pick
All dispelling type spells cast by the wizard are twice as powerful. All direct damage spells cast by the wizard have a +20% strength.

Option G

Runemaster - 2 picks
All Arcane spells costs 25% less to research and cast, Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known. All spells cast by the wizard are twice as hard to dispel.

Annihilator - 1 pick
All dispelling type spells cast by the wizard are twice as powerful. All combat spells cast by the wizard cost 33% less (the category, not everything during combat).

Option H

Arcane Mastery - 2 picks
All Arcane spells costs 25% less to cast, Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known. All dispelling type spells cast by the wizard are twice as powerful.

Runemaster - 1 pick
All spells cast by the wizard are twice as hard to dispel. All Arcane spells are 25% faster to research.

Option I

Runemaster - 1 pick
All spells cast by the wizard are twice as hard to dispel. All Arcane spells are 25% faster to research.

Artificier - 1 pick
All Arcane spells costs 25% less to cast, Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known.

Annihilator - 2 picks
All dispelling type spells cast by the wizard are twice as powerful. All combat spells cast by the wizard cost 50% less (the category, not everything during combat).

An existing retort has to be removed to make room for this case.


I think I like these most : A,C,E,H, I (nothing to remove though)

[zitro1987]

H is my clear favorite, glad it is among your favorites as well. It's well rounded set of retorts with very different purposes and strategies.

I don't like the annihilator ideas, except for the +20% spell damage one.

[Seravy]

H is my clear favorite, glad it is among your favorites as well. It's well rounded set of retorts with very different purposes and strategies.

I don't like the annihilator ideas, except for the +20% spell damage one.

Assuming we go with H (not yet decided), we need to rethink AI retort picks because functionality changes a lot. (We also need to change default wizards, Silver has to lose a book and Clow has to gain one, for original portraits, it's harder because Runemaster is on a 10 books wizard - we can't swap that with the functionally identical new Runemaster because it results in 11 books or not enough picks used)

Sorcery+Chaos goes Runemaster as primary. New runemaster protects the powerful sorcery and chaos enchantments the same way as the old one, so this is acceptable. However, additional dispel power (mainly for the sorcery half which benefits from it through Dispelling Wave and AEther Binding) is lost, so this template gets weaker. (they get an extra book chance though, and spells in these realms do hit hard)

Chaos+Life goes Runemaster as secondary. These realms entirely use this retort for protecting enchantments, so this combination gets stronger : no pick wasted on unnecessary dispel power.

Sorcery+Life goes Artificier as secondary. Sorcery is included, so the extra pick spent on additional dispelling power is well spent, however artifacts created might be weaker due to fewer books not allowing from some of the stronger choices - this is most likely marginal though, as artifacts are chosen at random, and it's unlikely for the AI to have roll the 6+5 books for all item powers in both realms anyway.

Since Artificier is much less often selected than Runemaster, AI wizards with extra dispel power will be too rare. It will need to be added to at least one more, preferably primary slot. However, wasting 2 AI picks on this is not very good, the AI does not benefit from making artifacts much, and dispel is situational. It feels expensive, especially for a Sorcery wizard where the retort is the best.

However, 2 cost Artificier might be a major burden for the human player. The best Artifcier build is Sorcery+Life, and 6+5 books are required to have access to all powers in both realms. This already exceeds 12 picks and that build probably also wants other hero related retorts. The books cost of item powers might need to be reconsidered again. Of everything in the game, Artificier is the strictest build, where you need the highest amount of specific picks for specific item powers - even if not playing life+sorcery. I don't think spending an extra pick on dispel power would play well.

I'll think about it more, but I have doubts about H being good now.

Assuming we don't want a 2 cost Artificier-Arcane Mastery (It really is a bunch of situational and unimportant effects piled together with the real selling point, cheaper items, which is not even worth 1 pick by itself, let alone 2), it leaves A and C I guess?

The other big question is, do we want to keep the dispel resistance and dispel power effects together on Runemaster or not. I like how these both are a perfect fit for the Chaos-Sorcery AI template (and Clow Reed, as well as Ariel) and would be sad to see those gone. On the other hand I feel this retort would be better for 1 pick, but the dispel bonus and resistance together is kinda too good for that - even if the arcane bonus is removed?
Or maybe not?

Option J

Artificier - 1 pick
Arcane spells cost 25% less to cast and are 25% faster to research. Enchant Item and Create Artifact costs 50% less to cast. The wizard starts with Enchant Item already known.

Runemaster - 1 pick
The wizard's spells are +100% more resistant to dispelling and the wizard's attempts to dispel other wizards' spells is twice as effective.

In this case we have 1 fewer 2 pick retorts though, and this breaks the default Ariel - an additional non-life book has to be included to keep the total at 12 picks. Default Clow Reed is not affected though, except that he gets an extra book.
It also opens up the possibility of an existing retort to cost 2 and get a more powerful effect, though I don't think any of them needs that.
And of course the question, "is this Runemaster too powerful for 1 pick" remains.

[Al_Al]

I like the Option A, it leaves the default Ariel mostly intact and still provides sufficient boost to Artificer.

[zitro1987]

Option J would be best if the percentage bonus is 80% as opposed to 100% (or instead given a tiny penalty to wizard), though I think 100% would not be broken.
This option also allows a free 2-pick. You might combine the similar purposes of 'famous' and 'charismatic' (work best if picked together so why not combine them) into a 2-pick retort. --> Now you have a free space for a new 1-pick retort:
*This 1 pick retort could maybe be the opposite of guardian, in which it helps you attack enemy cities? maybe for these cases, it grants +1 to melee or maybe it grants +50% combat skill? (name: raider, marauder, conquistador, etc)
*This 1 pick retort could also be something that helps you attack lairs or increases lair bonuses by 50% (name: Adventurer)?


I also like Option A

[Seravy]

Option J would be best if the percentage bonus is 80% as opposed to 100% (or instead given a tiny penalty to wizard), though I think 100% would not be broken.
This option also allows a free 2-pick. You might combine the similar purposes of 'famous' and 'charismatic' (work best if picked together so why not combine them) into a 2-pick retort. --> Now you have a free space for a new 1-pick retort:
*This 1 pick retort could maybe be the opposite of guardian, in which it helps you attack enemy cities? maybe for these cases, it grants +1 to melee or maybe it grants +50% combat skill? (name: raider, marauder, conquistador, etc)
*This 1 pick retort could also be something that helps you attack lairs or increases lair bonuses by 50% (name: Adventurer)?


I also like Option A

I don't think I want to combine Famous with Charismatic. While they are certainly a good combination (for items and mercenaries), Charismatic is a good standalone retort - Its main purpose is the diplomacy effect. (and I doubt people would spend two picks on a diplomacy bonus, even though diplomacy advantages are a huge benefit)
Famous is for hero strategies, and those will likely have a hard time finding room for an extra pick cost, and I like Famous+Charismatic being a (difficult and good) choice instead of mandatory.

Some other possible uses for the extra 2 pick slot could be
-Cult Leader, if it was a "doubles" bonus instead of +50%.
-Specialist if the bonus was slightly higher (this solves mono-realm default wizard problems because any of them works well with it, but there is a risk of being over or underpowered so it might be a bad idea - stacking cost reductions is a dangerous thing.)

[zitro1987]

2 pick ideas:

archmage/sagemaster/mana focusing - not fun for 2 pick
alchemy - massive bonus to alchemist guild (this actually solves balance problems of barbarians)
conjurer - +25% hp (rounded down) to fantastic creatures, chaos channels, blood lust, etc
famous - even higher chance to heroes and/or units
**specialist - 20% cost bonus, 33% research bonus** - my choice of a 2pick retort, fixes mono-realm wizard problems, but please concentrate on research bonus - stacking cost reductions can be a problem
tactician - meh? doesn't sound like a 2 pick retort
cult leader - 2X base bonus, multiply effect of spells like dark rituals by only 150% or none (too overpowered otherwise)
Inquisitor - unrest reduction (makes picking klackon less obvious)