Game report: Nature summoner with lizardmen

[Nelphine]

Oh absolutely. My argument is just that mana focusing is better than cult leader even in the end game. Channeler is definitely better than either. But 2 picks is much harder to justify without an early game advantage (and the maintenance doesn't matter enough to choose to spend picks for it.)

[Catwalk]

I'm glad to see extensive testing and good discussions. As I mentioned, I just started my new job and have little time for playing. I'm satisfied that this game is a good demonstration of how to overpower Impossible. We should do more games like this where we test specific setups that we deem too strong, then maybe switch the setup and play it again to see how another setup compares. Problem is that we'll have full map knowledge in the second game, but we can pretend that we don't and play accordingly.

I think this setup will let you win convincingly on most random maps, and I don't think the map settings matter much. I'm also happy that you saw how much slower you will be if you rely on building ranged units for taking out nodes. More importantly, you tend to lose some of those against even easy sorcery nodes. Like GermanJoey I also rely heavily on Giant Spiders mid-game, they're very powerful units. I'm not sure if they're too strong, but they're certainly fun to play with. No wonder I got hosed by them back when I played nomads.

My take on what to do:
1) Sprites
Remove Flying or make them uncommon. As long as they have Flying and a useful ranged attack, they can be used for stuff like this. I don't think this is a particularly interesting role, or one that's good for game balance. Imagine them with 3 moves and no Flying instead. They can no longer hop islands and they can't wait out combats. But they're still potent shooters, maybe even lower them to 60 mana and 1 upkeep. Take them down to 4 figures and give them 2 hearts. Good early units that are useful for many things, and slightly better lair defenders than now (more firepower for their cost, more effort to take them out).

2) Mana Focusing
I agree to an extent with this enabling early game power strategies, and I agree that those should not exist. While we've all had fun romping around with Torin and 11 Life books, it's ridiculous that this was possible. This is roughly as strong as the Torin strategy, except it requires a little bit more skill to execute well. I suggest that Mana Focusing increases mana output by 50% and that the 8 bonus mana is removed. That makes it weaker early game, better late game. I also agree with Nelphine that it's a decent late game pick already.

3) Conjurer
Cutting Sprite upkeep from 2 to 1 is huge. Same with Giant Spiders. Conversely, War Bears get a reduction of 0. Would you be able to implement correct rounding? It's weird that it works this way, and War Bears are too weak when they're the same upkeep as Giant Spiders.

[Catwalk]

I forgot one problem: Ridiculously easy Sorcery nodes. This is a relic from the original game, and there's no reason for us to let it live. Give Phantom Beasts and Nagas 3 moves and the problem is half fixed.

[Nelphine]

I wouldn't change naga move due to overland, but making phantom beasts speed 3 (maybe even 4 - they just hurl terrain out of the way and they're phantom) might actually be good.

Alternatively, have nodes give neutral creatures of the same type +1 movement in addition to the other bonuses.

[Seravy]

Cutting Sprite upkeep from 2 to 1 is huge. Same with Giant Spiders. Conversely, War Bears get a reduction of 0. Would you be able to implement correct rounding?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "correct", it had one way of rounding pre-insecticide and another after and in this mod.

I rather not buff Nagas and Phantom Beasts - for nodes I agree but I don't want them to be any better in the hands of an actual wizard.

Alternatively, have nodes give neutral creatures of the same type +1 movement in addition to the other bonuses.

This might work. Phantoms are still easy even if they move 5 though - with no armor, they get killed by 2-3 shots from a generic bow unit, or 1 shot for warriors.

I think it's early to change sprites - we should reconsider after we fixed mana focusing and astrologer. I don't like either idea though - it's obviously a flying creature, and it's also obviously a fragile creature - the latter will not be acceptable for an Uncommon. (and I don't think there is any Nature uncommon that could be made common.)
Again, I fail to see why it's just sprites. Horsebowmen and Draconian bowmen do the same thing. (I admit, Javelineers don't work due to their price. Longbowmen are also not as good as sprites but they are probably not too far away, especially if you can put holy weapon on them. But horsebowmen and draconian bowmen are cheap and are either fast enough to evade all but great wyrms, or fly.)

[Catwalk]

I don't think that it's obviously a flying creature, though. You can easily consider it to be hovering instead, well within reach of weapons.

Horsebowmen don't do the same thing, specifically because they cannot take out Great Wyrms. It's silly to let a common creature take out a very rare creature with such ease. It adds a huge luck factor to lair clearing. Moreover, Horsebowmen cannot be combined with Web to make them invulnerable to flying creatures. Lastly, Horsebowmen are themselves overpowered (and not a good unit to compare with) but even so they are not spells. Draconian Bowmen might be unbalanced, I have yet to try a Life game with them and see if I can clear nodes with the same ease. But they're a Myrran race, meaning they cost 2 picks. There should definitely be some big advantages to being Myrran.

I rather like +1 movement for nodes, but Nagas are utter garbage in the hands of a wizard in most circumstances. It's a completely unimpressive unit. At 3 moves it's still rather bland.

[Nelphine]

Nagas in the hands of a conjuror impossible AI that declares war early *cough chaotic* are nasty, because they can swarm you even easier than war bears.

They are summoned lizardmen, to refer to the great carpet of doom problem.

[Seravy]

They are summoned lizardmen, to refer to the great carpet of doom problem.

It's more scary than that. They are summoned lizardmen with First Strike and 12 poison damage. It's a specialized anti-normal-unit and anti-early-game creature. Ranged attacks are the only thing that can deal with them, but if they move faster that no longer works - they'd become unstoppable by everything except horsebowmen and Death wizards.
It's not impressive in the hand of the human player - well they are if you attack early enough and can hit stacks of normal units - but we are talking about sorcery here, the realm with "no decent overland creatures below rare".

Sprites, they are fairies with wings. You can see the wings when you summon them. A creature with wings of that size should fly.
I'm sorry for taking so much time on deciding on this but I don't see a good solution right now (nor do I think one game was enough proof for it - the retorts contributed too much to tell) and they are my favorite summoned unit in the game so I'll be ultra-cautious before changing them in any way. (not favorite for the power level btw, I just like fairies in general. The power level, at least against other wizards, is more on the useless side.)
Speaking of which, what is your intended role for sprites? As is, they are good vs lairs because they fly and come early. But they are outright useless against any wizard. If we take away flight or make them uncommon, we'll need to design an entirely new unit with a new role, as summoning something with less durability than bowmen and barely higher attack power for massive amounts of mana (heck, even for low amounts, early casting skill and mana is too precious) is just unplayable.

[Catwalk]

Playing another game, 10 Nature + Specialist and Conjurer with Halflings. Took over 3 neutral cities quickly and will soon take a Sorcery Node (1402). Got 5-6 more lairs lined up and another Sorcery node. Fair power, fair land mass. Looks like yet another easy win, only possible because of sprites.

[Domon]

what about giving sprites missile immunity and caster in exchange of flying?