[SPOILER] PB37 Dark Savant tries not to be a blatant MP n00b

[Dark Savant]

Other players and their dedlurkers aren't supposed to look at this!

Just in case someone accidentally clicked here, here are pictures indicating my intended city naming scheme.




No, I can't really use Wizardry as a namespace; there aren't enough placenames even if I combined all eight games.  (I have no familiarity whatsoever with the numerous Japan-only releases.)

[Dark Savant]

I don't have a starting position picture yet, so I can't discuss that yet.

Traits are more balanced in RtR than vanilla BtS, but I will probably choose a leader before a civilization because that has more impact on gameplay.

Here's what I think of the traits in this mod (in what I think my priority is):

Expansive - most attractive trait overall, even without the granary production bonus.  Nothing better for getting that early snowball going, and it remains useful all game.
Financial - still strong, unless my start is inland with a lot of river -- though with how rich many MP maps are, that might well happen.
Spiritual - I like this trait more than most other people, and I certainly don't mind micromanaging a revolt every 5 turns.  The main problem is that this takes a while to truly pay off.
Aggressive - the faster culture and savings on maintenance makes this a halfway decent builder's trait, like Civ 3 Militaristic.  The military bonuses amount to a thick layer of tasty icing.
Protective - fast granaries and superior defenders are a good combination, I think.
Charismatic - would be worthwhile in RtR if maps weren't so rich.  Much of the point of taking this is so you don't suffer under a tight happy cap until you get religion/Monarchy/Calendar, but I'll probably have an early happiness resource within 6 tiles of start.
Organized - I don't like this trait as much as others do, even though this is a Toroidal map with coast.  I'd rather have the package Aggressive offers (unless I can stack Organized with a courthouse UB?)
Creative - I've never liked this as much as most other people seem to, and it certainly isn't attractive to me without double-production libraries.
Philosophical - never been a fan of this one, even if buffed; all this really does is make your first couple GPs faster-- nice, but it doesn't seem to be worth the opportunity cost.
Industrious - I don't think I can take this with such an early pick in MP, even though this has a couple of stealth buffs and it's a trait I like in vanilla SP.
Imperialistic - I think this one is the weakest, though I'd still consider if I can stack it with another early trait.

[ipecac]

Dedlurker checking in.

What civs do you want? And are you picking traits first?

[Dark Savant]

Dedlurker checking in.

What civs do you want? And are you picking traits first?

I'm inclined to pick a leader first, yes.  I might pick a leader with a couple civs in mind (most likely Organized + some civ with courthouse UB), but I don't think the traits are balanced enough for civ-first to pay off, mostly because I think Expansive is the best trait by a significant margin.  I get the impression many other people think the same, so this wouldn't necessarily be reflected in winning statistics, because even n00bs will pick Expansive (and not be derided for it).

I'm also inclined to strongly bias civ by which starting techs they have, partly since I haven't done that before.   I also don't want to pick a civ with a late UU/UB if I don't get great starting techs -- America is still late by my reckoning, as it's going to take too long to get to Guilds/Rifling for that to matter.  I might pick a civ first if the starting position demands two specific starting techs, though I don't think that likely.

I'd also prefer not to pick a combination that might put my neighbors on edge, like Shaka of Rome.

If you have a different opinion, I'd like to hear it -- I've scanned a whole bunch of reports but I'm still trusting my own judgment here more, and my judgment is backed by exactly zero MP experience.

[Dark Savant]

If the start position is right, I might want a civ first -- because we have few enough players in this game that we're still guaranteed an Expansive leader even in the second round.

More likely than not I won't want to do that, since with the 4th pick we're guaranteed one of Isabella, Mao, Mehmed II, or Shaka picking leader first, with the option of taking Pacal II or Washington if the starting position suggests Financial or Charismatic.  (I'd be inclined to take Charismatic if we've got no camp/mine happy resources visible, but multiple Calendar/wine happy resources.)

That depends on what our starting position is.  I see from the thread titles that other players are itching for one too.  

[Dark Savant]

While I'm waiting for a start position picture, Krill's spoiler thread is lapping everyone else's combined in post count.

This will not do.

How about some Civ trivia? All lurkers can post answers! 
 
All questions apply only to the 6 main Civilization games, with all patches and expansions, and no mods.  I haven't played Civ 6, so that game is most likely to be off.  No fair looking anything up.  

1. Which Civ games show a movie when you complete a Wonder of the World?
   
2. Which Civ games have a Great Wall wonder that can go obsolete?
   
3. (a) In which Civ games can you produce a "starvation settler" in your capital?  (I.e., producing a settler can cause food to somehow appear out of nowhere.)  (b) In which Civ games does the human player have no production overflow at all?
   

[ipecac]

AGG doesn't offer faster culture unless you start without Mysticism. +100% on a 60h barracks is the same cost as an Obelisk. Personally I'd rank ORG higher but you should play something you're comfortable with. And you should (IMO) pair EXP with a long-term trait; I wouldn't recommend Joao in your first MP game.

Also, do consider starting techs very closely: they can critically affect your snowball.

[Dark Savant]

AGG doesn't offer faster culture unless you start without Mysticism. +100% on a 60h barracks is the same cost as an Obelisk. Personally I'd rank ORG higher but you should play something you're comfortable with. And you should (IMO) pair EXP with a long-term trait; I wouldn't recommend Joao in your first MP game.

Also, do consider starting techs very closely: they can critically affect your snowball.

Well, they cost the same production, but I was thinking not only the research cost of Mysticism (or the opportunity cost of starting with it), but also that a regular monument doesn't do anything other than culture.

Do people interpret choosing Aggressive as aggressive diplomatically?  I don't get that impression reading threads from other games; people do seem to interpret Aggressive plus an early melee UU badly, but not Aggressive on its own.  I don't want my neighbors fearfully building early extra axes and chariots in an unwanted early arms race, which is asking for trouble.  Come to think of it, quite a few other people in this game are new to MP -- I'm wondering if we might evoke such a reaction with a new-to-MP neighbor.  I don't think veterans will want any part of such an early arms race, unless we start one ourselves or they have an early attack UU.  Protective is a more friendly way of deterring attack, but it's still lousy as a later-game economic trait.

On going for an early religion with a Mysticism start: I'm not inclined to do it, but I would also much rather chase an early religion than an early wonder.  It depends on if we get a start where we can get by with just one worker tech for a while.

I suppose we don't currently know what the map's tech multiplier will be?

[Mardoc]

Your start:



Fog does not actually lie this time, although you're certainly welcome to read more into it than is actually there

[Dark Savant]

Okay, map size is Large (as expected); that means the tech multiplier is 1.4 (Large) * 1.15 (Monarch) = 1.61.

So a 60-flask (those Civ 2/3/4 icons are Erlenmeyer flasks, not beakers; the game doesn't call them beakers until Civ 5) tech like Agriculture will cost 60 * 1.61 = 96 flasks.

There's no other plains hill in sight, so I'm going to plan for draft picks as if we're settling in place.  That, and many settler moves would make putting a work boat on the freshwater clam clumsy or impossible, especially if we want to keep all 3 food tiles in the capital's radius.

We do have a 1-hammer tile in first ring, needed to get the RtR-Expansive worker/work boat production bonus, so Expansive is indeed worth taking.  If that cow tile were in second ring, I'd seriously consider not.

Charismatic is likely not worth it, because I see furs, and no wines or Calendar happy to crowd out other happiness resources; Imperialistic is even weaker than normal because there's just not much forest to chop into settlers; and that's an inland start with enough river tiles that I'm wavering on Financial.

I'm wondering if it's best to start with Fishing and put a boat on the freshwater clam first.  If we are Expansive, we produce 4hpt (working the cow) for 5 turns and 5hpt (working the forested hill) for 2 turns, so we can create a 5 food tile on turn 7.  I'm not sure this beats simply building a 10-turn worker out the gate, but our other food are plains cow and dry (? -- is it?) rice which aren't thrilling options either.

I suppose it's sim time.