CML hallucinates another undeserved victory

[mackoti]

Thanks again

Sims showed that EXP barely accelerated the start, as we'd have to give up working a 3/0/1 tile (then after the border pop a 3/0/2 tile) to gain the extra hammer. This slows down BW which will make us quite possibly use that fast worker less efficiently. Not that EXP is bad, I just wonder if PRO or IMP aren't better.

I think I read somewhere that the map is large—can anyone confirm? This would help me recheck the sim.

IND sounds great, definitely leaning in that direction.

Well with doublers giving just 50% now,wonders are realy expensives even the national ones are a pain to build so i realy think Bismark is strong(I considered Bismark top 4 even in plain Bts so take my advice with a grain of salt). With Mehmed you cant go wrong , i playe him so many times and guy is beast and we are talking here you can build some markets when you expand in your big cities as gave money and more pop to work and in small cities you get CH as well easy, 2 chop and there you go.

About Peter is totaly a diferent strategy wich involves getting a realy big capiyol fast academy and after bulbing towards whatevew r you want.Realy I dont see any leadear whicch can compete with this 3, but I am ready to hear arguments.

[CML]

OK Mack you've convinced me.




And now for the nuclear wessels ...

[mackoti]

OK Mack you've convinced me.




And now for the nuclear wessels ...

Well looks like we are the only  team with Ind which is very good.I think going aestethic line and getting the free artist should be a priority, before or after MC this is the question.If we have at least one happines doubled by forge i think is worth MC first if not maybe better those as we need GS anyway.

[Rusten]

RE: EXP:
2T faster worker results in faster wb, faster growth to size 2 and onwards, faster everything -- before the other early game booster traits like PRO/IMP come into play. I don't agree with it "barely accelerating". Most of the commerce lost from not working fp/oasis at start will be regained by the faster city growth to size 2 and 3. Possibly having a few idle worker turns (I didn't sim) doesn't matter if it's a consequence of a more developed city -- that's what the worker is there for in the first place.

Either way the choice has been made and it's looking real good.



(Forward! Victory is near!)

[CML]

Sweet.

Is making a play for the Oracle -> MC a thing?

Pros: our forges are dope; trebs available at machinery (which we need a GE to bulb since we're fishing); no one else is IND; Prophet points for a shrine might be great

Cons: higher tech costs on large map mean possibly delaying economic techs; GE will take forever without PHI for the longer plan; someone else might have the same idea; religious techs suck; MC is cheaper in RTR; we might want to do the Arts & Crafts line (fine with me, I was and am an English literature major); not many trees in sight

When do these games typically start for real, and is there a primer for everything I should know to disembark on my maiden voyage?

[mackoti]

Sweet.

Is making a play for the Oracle -> MC a thing?

Pros: our forges are dope; trebs available at machinery (which we need a GE to bulb since we're fishing); no one else is IND; Prophet points for a shrine might be great

Cons: higher tech costs on large map mean possibly delaying economic techs; GE will take forever without PHI for the longer plan; someone else might have the same idea; religious techs suck; MC is cheaper in RTR; we might want to do the Arts & Crafts line (fine with me, I was and am an English literature major); not many trees in sight

When do these games typically start for real, and is there a primer for everything I should know to disembark on my maiden voyage?

About MC - usualy is worth but you can find like some people found in some pb-os that some noob goes directly for oracle and you  just lose beakers.I would prefer to do the things alitle more clasical-get all worker techs ,,beline math and get the mids(which are great as happy enables and beakers giving) and realy after math we should reasses seeing what all other are building.

Did you build a sandbox CML?

[CML]

Hi Mack—yeah, I built a sandbox and simmed a little. Are there certain shortcuts for building it / extending it as we play the game / sharing it with other people in the thread?

CML

Edit: going econ -> math sounds great to me, let's do that. I understand a lot about civ4 from Deity SP but browsing the games here has made me realize how much more I have to learn. Here are some topics I could use some help on:

—Early defense vs. humans (i.e. how conservative to be with units)?
—REXing (you can't on Deity because of maintenance costs) and building enough workers to take advantage of the lush map
—Managing a larger empire
—Staying on course with happy cap
—Warfare in general (SP favors the defender pretty strongly; doesn't look like it in RB games, though ... being on defense just seems like the kiss of death)
—Planning ahead in general (dotmapping is easy enough, but like I never 1t chop wonders in SP). So for example I'm assuming we'll build the Mids in a spot with lots of virgin forest.

I'm assuming the other players will view us as a juicy target because we will have some wonders.

Mack, any interest in tryna grab Stonehenge based on map?

[CML]

OK, sweet, between the map being larger (retarding BW) and that rice being wet, I found a dece opening:

worker (working plains cow)
finish fishing, switch to ag
start pasturing moocow, switch to oasis or clams, start wb
finish pasture, switch to plains cow, move worker to wet rice (wasting 2 turns)
finish wb, switch to clams, start warrior, start bronze working after ag(?)
finish farm t17, switch from cow to rice, grow eot 17 (exactsies food)
send worker to mine the hill
grow eot 20

then we run into some issues:
—starting the settler at 3 seems a lot worse than waiting until 4, since we have the oasis + 3 improved tiles and will be improving another shortly (mine or FP farm? probably mine)
—starting a second warrior before growing to size 4 comes up 1h short, settler finishes the same turn due to OF either way but I can't figure out how to OF into a 1-turn worker with a chop because BW is a turn late.
—finishing the warrior lets us finish the settler in exactly 6 turns (4 OF + 6*16=100) with the escort, except then we have 11 food moldering in the box. i guess that's fine, but then the issue is that there's no OF into the worker at all so he completes 2 turns after the settler, meaning we might waste another worker turn revolting (no turns where the settler is in transit and the worker is also out). any way to deal with this? maybe it's not a big deal since the homies don't seem to have _all_ that much to do.

i do not think we want to go 2nd worker before settler (no high-yield tiles to improve, not enough worker techs).

the plan unfortunately wastes worker turns, but all the alternatives are so unappealing I don't know what else to do.

any thoughts on where to move the scout?

any merit in delaying Bronze working?

[CML]

I'll be traveling until Friday with sporadic access to Internet in case the game starts and I go AWOL for ~12h.

[Elkad]

Here are some topics I could use some help on:

—Early defense vs. humans (i.e. how conservative to be with units)?
—REXing (you can't on Deity because of maintenance costs) and building enough workers to take advantage of the lush map
—Managing a larger empire
—Staying on course with happy cap
—Warfare in general (SP favors the defender pretty strongly; doesn't look like it in RB games, though ... being on defense just seems like the kiss of death)
—Planning ahead in general (dotmapping is easy enough, but like I never 1t chop wonders in SP). So for example I'm assuming we'll build the Mids in a spot with lots of virgin forest.

I'm mildly spoiled (skimmed some threads last week), so I'll keep this vague.

Don't ask me about micro, I'm terrible at it.

In order of your questions.


Defense - You need eyes.  And spears.  You can usually whip something vs an opportunistic axe that pops out of the fog.  Vs a chariot you may not have the luxury.  MP is a game of 2-movers, and spears are the cheapest defense against them.  And internal roads on direct paths, with a reaction force of 2-movers.  You don't really "defend", you just attack inside your borders, with the movement advantage of your road network.

If you get to the late game, someone will have a commando factory, or saved generals, or something, which means you need to think carefully about your road (and especially rail) networks, because the enemy might use them. If your rails are thin in a key area defensive area, if nothing else you can put a screen of workers out (one per square) to stop multiple commandos.  Meanwhile if you need a rail for offense, you just build it that turn.

REX all you can.  Maint isn't the issue, managing to not get killed while expanding fast enough to stay competitive with the other guy that isn't getting killed is.  Of course REXing via the sword works too.

Signs everywhere.  Spreadsheets.  Learn to always login, and carefully examine the entire map, and the event log, and the various info screens, and your notes, before you do anything.  Following your micro plan and cracking the whip on some new buildings only to discover a stack headed your way is disheartening.

Happy.  These maps are generally rich, and the difficulty is low.  Even without Monarchy, you tend to have a fine selection of luxuries to keep your happy cap reasonable.  And someone always wants to trade.  It's nowhere near the problem you are accustomed to.

Warfare.  Watch for forks (where a 2-mover stack can threaten 2 cities) - the only defense for this is offense.  Road your hills defensively, and preferentially chop any tile adjacent to a border city or other critical strongpoint, you don't want an enemy stack in the woods.  Assume any neutral or enemy square without a road has a stack of workers hiding in the fog to road it on his turn.  Or 8 workers to road 4 squares.  Assume the enemy always has a sentry chariot, even if he has to put Morale on it too and keep it where you can't see it.  Know if he has EP visibility on your cities, and how visibility works on the surrounding tiles, if you are trying to hide troops.  That 1-tile land bridge does not keep his fleet out of the other ocean, he'll drop a settler or has a 90% built fort he'll finish in a single turn when you least expect it (or both for a 2-tile bridge).

Planning in general.  It isn't paranoia, they really all are out to get you.  Anyone who has seen the city (or a map trade of it) where you are slow-building a wonder is reading the EP screen (for sabotage cost) and knows you are building it.  Even if they can't compete, they know you piled 300 hammers in not-spears-or-settlers and is planning accordingly (maybe just planning to ignore you while they attack their other flank, but how can you be sure).  Be afraid to swap out of slavery/nationalism, especially if your neighbors haven't (or can swap back in).  Everything has to happen fast.  Wonders, armies, first-to techs, whatever.  When you see your neighbor researching Guilds, assume he is prebuilding HAs, and will push a Knight out the turn after he completes the tech.  In every single city he has.  

Some people here (the ones that win) will map every bit of information they can gather from various screens and the scoreboard for every player on a graph every turn.  That means when your empire is small, he knows every unit you build, every tech you complete, and probably has a good guess at your buildings.  Your life expectancy went up?  You built a granary.  It went down?  You chopped a forest.  It only works in the beginning, but small advantages snowball.

One more - Turn order.  This is not SP.  It's set with your opponent during the war (by house rules), but it's initially set by the aggressor.  At kickoff there is an advantage to moving second.  He's one whip/draft cycle behind you.  Which is key for your initial attack.  There are a few edge cases, but assume you always want to move second in wars.  Which also means if you suspect your opponent of clockwatching to play after you, you'd best beware.