RBP3 [Spoilers] Capac of Mali

[Swiss Pauli]

If we want them both, then we need to settle them in pretty short order. I did assume that England would be staking out the area and would notice that we founded 1 city, and would rush to settle Gibraltar, or Pink Dot, if we delayed.

This may not be the case. If we want to settle at a more normal pace, then Pink Dot should be first because it brings tiles into play for Uberfish as well.

[dsplaisted]

Pink dot won't immediately bring tiles into play for Uberfish. One of them needs to pop its borders before they share tiles.

I would like to settle both cities. I am very greedy for territory. Once the Settler finishes in Sirian, we can grow to size 6, spend one turn on another Settler, and then triple whip it the next turn. How long will it take us to grow to size 6? Will we have enough military to guard our new cities by then? We are under a NAP with England, so we shouldn't have to worry too much, right?

Daniel

[novice]

Chat with Broker (Paul):


So, gentle lurkers, we're the starting positions random?

Yes, of course. No considerations were taken with regard to which civs got which starting positions.

[Swiss Pauli]

Pink dot won't immediately bring tiles into play for Uberfish. One of them needs to pop its borders before they share tiles.

You're quite right, of course. I'll have to take off these rose-tinted glasses next time I check the game

I would like to settle both cities. I am very greedy for territory. Once the Settler finishes in Sirian, we can grow to size 6, spend one turn on another Settler, and then triple whip it the next turn. How long will it take us to grow to size 6? Will we have enough military to guard our new cities by then? We are under a NAP with England, so we shouldn't have to worry too much, right?

We have a NAP with England til T75, and there's a proposal for another until T110/111 on which they should give feedback because we rejected certain, ok most, of the clauses.

We don't really have the military to cover both...maybe if we squeeze a chariot in between settlers we could do it, but it would be pushing it to the limit (which may not be a bad thing). I think we were due to grow in 2 turns before we started on the settler, so if Marianne chops the forest 1SW of where she is we should get a 1 turn chariot (I think).

The chariot heading to Maya will be gifted to them as a goodwill token for the alliance (read more about this in upcoming diplo emails).

[Swiss Pauli]

Hi Guys,

As you can see from the attached, Settler is due in 3, so I think the new worker at Uberfish, Carla (Bruni), should chop out the rest of the chariot so it can escort the settler. Charlie should guard her whilst she chops.

Also at Uberfish, I've assigned one citizen to work the cottage instead of the FP. It slows growth by just one turn whilst giving 3 extra turns of cottage development.

Unnamed chariot moved towards Maya. Mick moved east, revealing nothing of interest.

@ Daniel: if you agree with the actions at Uberfish and have time this morning, please move the units and end turn. [edit: Daniel agreed ]

Cheers

Swiss

[Swiss Pauli]

email from Sumeria (who has now met all but us):

1) Tech Coordination. Google spreadsheet has been updated. Added a column for the Hydra techs already researched and the turn when known Hydra researchers are due to complete new techs. Invited Inca and Byzantium to share the spreadsheet.

With the Inca no longer at war, can they now assist in the research? How long would it take them to research Archery or alternatively Sailing?
There was a question as to the real ETA of Alphabet. Barring loss of a city or pillaging of a tile improvement, the worst case scenario for Alphabet is Turn 71. Sumeria can currently research Alphabet at positive gpt and complete on time. There is still a chance that Alphabet will be completed sooner due to 2 new cottages being built, a third cottage growing in 4 turns, a pop increase in 4 turns and the bonus from knowing 4 Hydra civs that already have Alphabet but I have not simulated it out. Turn 71 has always been the firm commitment date that Sumeria has given for Alphabet, there has been no slippage.
Maya are considering delaying Math from Turn 76 to Turn 78 to first research Hunting, which would also delay Construction by 2 turns and put the alliance behind on catapult production in the near future
Sumeria's advice is to focus on Math and build chariots and axemen over the next 6 turns
Byzantium has 4 research options currently on the table:
Polytheism (71), Monotheism
Hunting, Archery
Polytheism (71), Archery
Save gold, on Turn 71 speed research Archery and use remaining gold to help speed through another tech
Sumeria's advice, it depends upon when the Incans could complete researching Archery. Ideally the alliance should research Archery by Turn 73 when Horseback Riding is scheduled for completion. If the Incans can obtain Archery in time then Option 1 is fine (or swapping to some other research not currently being researched) otherwise Option 3 or 4 should be chosen depending upon whether the extra gold will actually speed up the completion turn of Archery.
Babylon asked whether they should obtain Horseback Riding as soon as possible or delay a few turns to save some gold
Sumeria's advice, get Horseback Riding as fast as possible
2) Intra-Alliance Contacts. Several Intra-Alliance contacts were made last turn which will help reduce the email forwarding requirements. The remaining contacts to be made as I understand it are:


Sumeria - Mali. Sumeria has a warrior headed east through Mayan lands looking to make contact with the Mali. Mali to produce a chariot on Turn 65 who will move to meet up.

Rome - Maya. This meeting should occur on Turn 64.

Rome - Babylon. Babylon has an axeman headed south to find Rome. Rome will have an axeman in 3 turns who can move to meet up.

Rome - Mali. A Mali warrior is headed east along Incan border looking for Rome. The same Roman axeman being produced in 3 turns to meet Babylon can move to meet up with the Mali.

Inca - Maya. A quechua is headed east from Babylon and could eventually reach Maya. A second quechua east of Rome can move NE to meet the Maya in Sumeria.

3) Indian War. Now that there is only one war for the alliance to focus on Sumeria would like to propose the following strategy and seeks it's allies feedback.
Instead of having everyone in the alliance declare war on India and trying to coordinate troop movements between several civs, Sumeria proposes that the war consist of Maya and Sumeria declaring war on India while the rest of the alliance gifts 2 units each to the cause and prepare to assist by declaring war on India's neighbours if they get involved. Specifically Sumeria proposes:
Sumeria declares war on Turn 71 after completing Alphabet. Sumeria's focus will be to eliminate Happy Hour and the horse resource associated with it
Maya focus will be Karaoke Tuesday and to deny India from rebuilding near its copper resource, pillaging tile resources in the meantime would also be a good idea after meeting Rome.
Rome donate to Sumeria the warrior currently near Bison Pass and donate an additional axeman as soon as possible. Rome should also prepare to attack Portugal in case they decide to aid India
Mali donate 2 chariots to Maya as soon as possible including the one scheduled to contact Sumeria near the Mayan border. Mali should prepare to attack the Aztec if they come to India's aid or possibly to defend the Maya from an attack from its northern neighbours
Byzantium donate 2 chariots to Sumeria, including the one currently near Bison Pass. Byzantium should prepare to defend the Maya from an attack from its northern neighbours
Incan donate the Quechua heading east from Babylon to Maya after making contact with the Maya. Incan donate the the Quechua east of Rome to Sumeria. Incans should prepare to attack the Aztec if they come to the aid of India (feasability of this aid depends upon how long the peace deal and its exact details).
Babylon donate 2 axemen to Sumeria as soon as possible. If the axeman scouting to meet Rome stayed to the east then the meeting between Rome and Babylon could take place near Sumerian borders which would facilitate the donation of both units. Baylon should prepare to attack the Aztec if they come to India's aid or possibly to defend the Maya from an attack from its northern neighbours.
If this plan is agreed to then Sumeria would ask that no units be gifted until turn 71 to prevent military maintenance costs from possibly affecting the time required to research Alphabet however in the meantime the units will need to be moving towards Bison Pass to maximize the effectiveness of an early strike
What do people think of the plan?


4) Aztec War. A peace deal was reached with all sides.
In as far as it affects the war vs India, Sumeria would like to know, what were the terms of the deal? In particular, how long is the NAP between Inca and Aztec?

5) Espionage Coordination.

Aztec. Sumeria has Research visibility.
India. Sumeria has demographics visibility. Current Maya EP focus.
Portugal. Rome has demographics visibility. Sumeria EP focus.
France. Rome EP focus.
Ottomans. Inca EP focus.
England. Mali has demographics visibility. Babylon and Byzantium EP focus.
Egypt. Eventual Maya EP focus?
Carthage. Mali EP focus.
Holy Roman Empire. Babylon or Byzantium EP focus depending upon who meets them first?

No problem with giving Maya our chariot, but the second one will have to wait a while. No chance of attacking Azteca either, so we'll help shore up Maya against northern (esp Egytian) aggression.

Inca is producing 4 gpt at 0% research so no way are they researching Archery for us

[Swiss Pauli]

Email to Sumeria:

(Please forward to Sumeria & Rome)

Mali Inputs

We'll donate the chariot heading east to Maya. Azteca is probably too far away to attack in any meaningful way, but we'll gladly defend Maya from any northern aggression, especially Krill's War Chariots.

We agree that having as few civs as possible in open conflict with India is the best way forward.

The trade screen tells us that neither England nor Carthage have yet met Egypt.

Settling Agreements: we would encourage all members of Heracles to seek out opportunities for co-ordinated, fair, settling of the land we share. I'm sure we all have a choke-point or two to secure against Hydra, but if we can agree on backline cities then we could gain an edge over Hydra members. If we waste our energies jockeying for position within Heracles there's no way we'll overcome being the smaller alliance.

Mali Question

How many units will Sumeria produce for the intial phase of the Indian campaign?

Best Wishes

Emperor Capac

[Swiss Pauli]

Inca agrees to settling:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Capac Mali

Dear Team JANK

Thanks for the positive feedback, and we look forward to continuing our relationship in the spirit of co-operation.

Best Wishes

Emperor Capac


On 12 March 2010 20:54, The JANK Team wrote:
'Dear Capac,

We agree with your assesment of the situation and will settle on the spot we marked.

Best wishes,
Nakor for JANK

And a chat:

20:56
JANK: Hi there

me: hiya

JANK: Nakor here

me: Swiss ici
20:57
JANK: did you get our message?

me: yes, was just about to reply

JANK: ok, great

me: am chatting to kittens atm

JANK: kittens is kyan?

me: Maya
20:58
JANK: hmm... have we met them?

think we just did

me: Ragnar...big hairy guy?
20:59
JANK: All those names...

guess we just made contact, east of Rome, right?
21:01
me: hang on...check map
21:02
dunno.. I spose so

not met rome yet

JANK: ok... kittens is at war with India, right?
21:03
me: yup

JANK: Talking to India now.
21:04
anything I need to drop to them?

me: any good gossip?
21:05
not much to say really
21:06
though i'm sure rego will find something to fill the void

JANK: talking to Darrel
21:07
me: have you met many Hydra members?

JANK: most of them

India is asking for troops in exchange for techs

me: for a while we'd met more of them than of our guys

JANK: course, we're not going to give them

same here

me: that would be silly givn it's NTB

*given
21:08
JANK: yep

me: unless they're offering Industrialism

JANK:

npt very likely

me: thought your troops had to march home anyway?
21:09
JANK: they have, but India claims they can get Ruff to change his mind

me: I guess they're tapping their allies for troops too
21:11
JANK: guess they are

everyone is willing to help them so expect the worst
21:12
thanks for the message

me: np
21:14
JANK: ok, time to go, talk to you later

me: bye for now

JANK: bye

[Swiss Pauli]

Email exchange within Heracles (reads bottom to top):

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Byzantium

Bobchillingworth here-

The advantages & disadvantages of peace with India as I see it:

Advantages

* Two of our best techers, Sumeria and Maya, will be able to research with less military pressure from the enemy

* Our alliance's military is freed up to pursue multiple targets closer to our various front lines, as opposed to everyone shuttling troops halfway across the Earth to do battle with India.

* By avoiding everyone piling on India at once, we keep the full extent of our alliance secret for a while longer.


Disadvantages

* Right now we're on the bad end of a 7 vs. 9 tech alliance situation; we could try to race the other civilizations up the tech tree, but they have a head start and both a technological and military advantage that will only continue to grow over us. If we can take out even only one of their teams early on, then we can even the odds, but right now we seem to find ourselves with many targets and as many plans of attack, but little action outside of Maya's heroic razing of India's copper site. Without some sort of coordinated aggressive action, I think we're only going to fall further and further behind, until they start picking us off.

* India, who currently lacks copper and a road network, will rebuild, depriving us of one of our "softer" targets.


Personally, I think that the peace proposal is a good idea if and only if we can agree on at least one replacement target to eliminate in the reasonably near future- for logistical and tactical reasons, two (or more) separate, coordinated strikes on different players is probably preferable. However, as the Maya and Sumerians are the ones most directly affected by the issue of peace, and because Byzantium currently does not have a great role in the present hostilities, I defer judgment to them for this matter.

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Sumeria wrote:
I'm willing to agree to those terms. I recommend that the NAP duration be until Turn 100 which is when the Aztec/Incan NAP expires.

In the meantime, I hope that the Byzantium chariot and the Roman warrior will make their way to Bison Pass to help protect it at least until Alphabet is researched or a peace deal is reached with India. I am still highly vulnerable to an attack due to this kamikaze run on Alphabet.

After discussions with Maya and Byzatium I have changed my production around such that I will be able to build my own non-warrior units to defend myself by Turn 75 (6 turns earlier then the original plan). Assuming my math is correct, I will still finish Alphabet on Turn 71 (if my math is wrong then it will be Turn 72 at the latest) however there is no longer any chance of me finishing Alphabet before Turn 71.
Regards,
Exploit

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Babylon wrote:
Hey chaps,

I like that a lot and think it would be very beneficial if they agree. I can see them arguing about the technicalities in point 3 but that would only strengthen our suspicions that the Hydra wish to take out our Alphabet provider.


On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Maya wrote:

I just talked with Tech Peddle by chat. He's worried about an attack from Portugal, for which reason Bhurak Starkiller is going to stay in his area regardless and help play defense (hopefully meeting Inca into the bargain, but that's secondary with a Quechua moving toward us via Byzantium.) It think there's a chance we can actually broker peace between the DJs, Tech Peddle, and the Friendly Kittens. India probably thinks their nine team alliance will out-tech us overwhelmingly anyway. It's up to us to prove them wrong!

Here's the proposal I want to send to India. Can I get agreement or counter-arguments?

Peace Proposal and Non-Aggression Pact between Friendly Kittens, DJ Civilization, and Tech Peddle
1) Peace will be made in-game between Friendly Kittens and DJ Civ
2) Non-Aggression Pacts will be established between DJ Civ and Friendly Kittens, and between DJ Civ and Tech Peddle. The duration of these NAPs shall be (put whatever number of turns makes you feel comfortable here; let's say at least 30, but more is good).
3) Included in "Non-Aggression": No gifting units that will be used in hostile actions against a NAP partner. No allowing right of passage to armies en route to attack a NAP partner. No providing logistical support (intelligence, road building to speed movement in neutral territory, etc.) to armies attacking a NAP partner. No bribing or goading civs into attacking a NAP partner. Etc. This pact is meant to establish actual peaceful relations between our three civs, not a screen behind which to hide while aiding war against one another.
4) For the duration of the NAP, DJ Civ and Tech Peddle will not settle aggressively toward each other. Tech Peddle plans to place exactly one city east of his current city sites: A city east and slightly north of his capital, and just north of northwest from Karaoke Tuesday, such that the BFCs of the cities do not overlap. The distance between DJ Civ and Friendly Kittens is such that "no aggressive settlements" will take care of itself.

That's what I've got. Thoughts? Anything wrong with this?

-Ref Eriksson for the Friendly Kittens

Sumeria doesn't come out of this looking at all good: tech rate rather indifferent, copper & horses not connected, and yet wanting to attack India.

[Swiss Pauli]

England's reply on the NAP:

We welcome this new NAP for our peoples as we move forward in this new and different era. We agree that a ROP clause which doesn't cover incoming armies isn't worth a whole lot, but didn't know how exactly to cover those 3rd party armies. Perhaps that we would all agree to a good-faith effort not to allow allied armies to use each team's lands to attack the other? It is highly unlikely that any of our teams' allies would keep us in the dark about the purpose of a stack of chariots or other weapons of war, so this should prevent our territory from being used to attack Mali or Babylon, and vice-versa.

Doesn't inspire great confidence: we ask some specific questions only to get a very vague answer in return