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Ok, I'll check the code. The same monster can't be twice but Earth Elementals have a special case "if this monster is alone, reroll the whole thing", probably that one has some bug that results in this.
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Yes, that was the problem, rerolling was done wrong.
Please redownload the file.
Since you mentioned "25%" I thought I might as well check the numbers against that - the sprite treasure counter outputs the number (and value) of found targets.
A map has at most 100 targets, putting a single world at 50 (at Huge size, otherwise it's 2 less per size setting). Only about half the world is actually covered by the tool due to distance, so there are 25 places. If we want 25% of that, we need roughly 6-7 on each map but the tool counts everything, including stuff where sprites are not relevant (by that i mean other units do an equal or better job, but sprites can also do it) which makes up about half. So I'd feel comfortable with about 10 (that sounds high but we are talking about a 30x30 map area - you will only explore half of that in a game at best meaning you find 5 out of which some have weak treasure or get taken by other players - I think 10 targets reported will only mean about 2-3 actually good targets in reality)
On the set of 8 maps that gave the higher output value, it looks like this :
Map 8 : 3 targets. Fails for 7 and 10 both.
Map 7 : 3 targets. Fails for 7 and 10 both.
Map 6 : 5 targets. Fails for both again.
Map 5 : 9 targets. Passes for 7, fails at 10.
Map 4: 3 targets. Fail.
Map 3: 5 targets. Fail.
Map 2 : 10 Passes.
Map 1 : 6 targets. Fail.
...and this includes buggy results that might contain double Earth Elemental or Great Wyrm so the reality is worse.
1 out of 8 maps passes the expectations fully, and 1 does partially. 6 Doesn't.
I think it's safe to say - as is, less than 25% of the targets on maps are doable with sprites.
If I were to translate these to actual games, map 4,7 and 8 is unplayable - summoning sprites will be a net loss on these. Map 1,3,6 is acceptable - on these I might be able to break even or get a profit if I get lucky with the distances and directions. Only map 2 and 5 seems to be where there is enough of an incentive to actually spend two starting spell picks on getting Sprites+Earth Lore (no, without Earth Lore, half of these targets won't be doable - due to their distance you have no spearmen to send in to scout and they might contain secondary monsters that kill your sprites, such as Phantom Warriors+ hidden Air Elemental due to invisibility)
I'm going to generate 8 maps without the elemental/wyrm bug and check again.
April 28th, 2017, 16:50
(This post was last modified: April 28th, 2017, 16:53 by Seravy.)
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Joined: Aug 2015
Improved the sprite treasure tool to also count Great Lizards and output the monsters in each found target. I've also made it so that only 6 or fewer counts for Great Lizards, Werewolves and Cockatrices (more is impossible due to regeneration or the cockatrices reaching and killing sprites) while other monsters are valid up to 9.
It also displays the actual distance.
I've also increased the number of maps to 20. Each map is Huge (most possible targets), Max power, Impossible.
The results (with the double elemental/wyrm bug already fixed) :
Code: Opening file #1
3 Great Lizard + 0 None 950 Node/Tower Distance :13
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 450 Node/Tower Distance :4
2 Unicorns + 2 Guardian Spirit 618 Distance :3
1 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 418 Distance :5
Opening file #2
1 Great Lizard + 5 War Bears 726 Node/Tower Distance :10
2 Phantom Beast + 3 Nagas 520 Distance :14
2 Sprites + 3 War Bears 330 Distance :14
Opening file #3
9 Hell Hounds + 0 None 373 Node/Tower Distance :11
5 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 1017 Node/Tower Distance :12
5 Sprites + 0 None 118 Distance :9
1 Great Lizard + 1 Sprites 531 Distance :10
1 Nagas + 4 Phantom Warriors 288 Distance :6
7 War Bears + 0 None 375 Distance :9
2 Phantom Beast + 3 Phantom Warriors 243 Distance :9
Opening file #4
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 768 Node/Tower Distance :6
1 Unicorns + 7 Guardian Spirit 68 Distance :14
7 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 468 Distance :5
6 Nagas + 2 Phantom Warriors 435 Distance :14
Opening file #5
6 Great Lizard + 0 None 1682 Node/Tower Distance :8
2 Great Lizard + 4 Sprites 104 Node/Tower Distance :12
8 War Bears + 0 None 412 Distance :8
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 0 Distance :7
2 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 78 Distance :11
Opening file #6
5 Great Lizard + 2 Sprites 1543 Node/Tower Distance :15
3 Unicorns + 1 Guardian Spirit 168 Distance :3
4 Skeleton + 0 None 0 Distance :11
8 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 382 Distance :12
Opening file #7
2 Unicorns + 0 None 518 Distance :12
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 255 Distance :7
4 Zombies + 0 None 258 Distance :8
6 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 307 Distance :15
1 Chaos Spawn + 3 Hell Hounds 553 Distance :9
3 War Bears + 0 None 280 Distance :8
2 Hell Hounds + 1 Fire Elemental 238 Distance :13
Opening file #8
2 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 718 Node/Tower Distance :4
3 Sprites + 0 None 358 Distance :13
2 Nagas + 5 Phantom Warriors 285 Distance :2
Opening file #9
4 Great Wyrm + 4 Sprites 3160 Node/Tower Distance :12
9 Hell Hounds + 0 None 390 Node/Tower Distance :11
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 618 Node/Tower Distance :9
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 532 Distance :14
7 Skeleton + 0 None 258 Distance :10
3 Unicorns + 0 None 318 Distance :9
5 War Bears + 0 None 393 Distance :5
Opening file #10
8 Chaos Spawn + 1 Fire Elemental 1905 Node/Tower Distance :12
5 Unicorns + 2 Guardian Spirit 920 Distance :8
4 Skeleton + 0 None 160 Distance :10
5 Skeleton + 0 None 68 Distance :4
7 War Bears + 0 None 375 Distance :8
Opening file #11
7 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 1545 Node/Tower Distance :14
7 Unicorns + 0 None 1312 Distance :13
8 War Bears + 0 None 558 Distance :6
1 Hell Hounds + 8 Fire Elemental 403 Distance :11
1 Phantom Beast + 0 None 218 Distance :15
7 Nagas + 0 None 208 Distance :6
8 War Bears + 0 None 558 Distance :13
Opening file #12
7 Chaos Spawn + 2 Hell Hounds 712 Node/Tower Distance :14
6 Great Lizard + 0 None 1282 Node/Tower Distance :10
6 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 268 Distance :10
2 Phantom Beast + 0 None 270 Distance :7
1 Chaos Spawn + 6 Hell Hounds 510 Distance :8
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 343 Distance :14
Opening file #13
5 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 1200 Node/Tower Distance :10
1 Great Lizard + 3 War Bears 616 Node/Tower Distance :14
2 Hell Hounds + 2 Fire Elemental 268 Distance :12
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 300 Distance :7
7 Hell Hounds + 2 Fire Elemental 493 Distance :9
2 War Bears + 0 None 228 Distance :11
7 Sprites + 0 None 532 Distance :14
8 Sprites + 0 None 475 Distance :2
1 Sprites + 6 War Bears 390 Distance :13
Opening file #14
6 Great Lizard + 1 Sprites 1230 Node/Tower Distance :14
5 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 977 Node/Tower Distance :11
3 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 868 Node/Tower Distance :8
3 Hell Hounds + 0 None 253 Distance :14
2 Sprites + 0 None 278 Distance :10
2 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 218 Distance :12
5 Zombies + 0 None 293 Distance :15
Opening file #15
Opening file #16
2 Nagas + 6 Phantom Warriors 408 Distance :14
4 Phantom Beast + 1 Nagas 435 Distance :15
Opening file #17
8 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 1882 Node/Tower Distance :10
2 Unicorns + 5 Guardian Spirit 570 Distance :10
4 Chaos Spawn + 1 Fire Elemental 798 Distance :14
3 Sprites + 0 None 272 Distance :12
9 Zombies + 0 None 433 Distance :7
Opening file #18
3 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 118 Distance :8
1 Sprites + 6 War Bears 378 Distance :11
3 Phantom Warriors + 0 None 0 Distance :6
Opening file #19
7 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 2068 Node/Tower Distance :11
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 918 Node/Tower Distance :5
7 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 1512 Node/Tower Distance :13
2 Great Lizard + 4 War Bears 870 Node/Tower Distance :10
3 Great Wyrm + 3 Sprites 1875 Distance :15
2 Hell Hounds + 0 None 208 Distance :14
7 Hell Hounds + 0 None 433 Distance :10
7 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 403 Distance :11
2 Nagas + 0 None 258 Distance :14
3 War Bears + 0 None 283 Distance :15
Opening file #20
3 Fire Elemental + 0 None 208 Distance :11
6 Nagas + 3 Phantom Warriors 613 Distance :3
1 Chaos Spawn + 3 Hell Hounds 412 Distance :7
Average total treasure :3579
I'll sort maps into four groups : "Fails" means sprites have no use in the map or produce a net loss. "Acceptable" means they can do at least not hinder you, but other methods of clearing out the targets is not significantly worse. For these maps, the spell is still not worth a starting spell slot (or additional Nature books). "Good" will be where there is enough treasure to be gained to be worth investing into the strategy. "Overpowered" means treasure is so high that I find it worrying for game balance.
I'm intentionally not including Neutral cities as the majority of them are easy to take out even without using Sprites, or aren't even with them. The only exception are large Gnoll and Klackon cities where sprites are amazing, but large neutrals are pretty rare in the current version. (and tbh even those are fairly easy with other tactics such as cloak of fear or spearmen spam with any combat spell)
Heroes, spells, and books are not counted because their value is too random and provides no economic boost. They are also fairly rare.
Map 1 : Acceptable.
Map 2 : Fail.
Map 3 : Fail
Map 4 : Acceptable.
Map 5 : Fail
Map 6 : Fail
Map 7 : Acceptable
Map 8 : Fail
Map 9 : Good
Map 10 : Acceptable
Map 11 : Fail-Acceptable
Map 12 : Fail
Map 13 : Acceptable
Map 14 : Fail/Acceptable
Map 15 : Fail, lol, 0 targets.
Map 16 : lol again.
Map 17 : Fail/Acceptable
Map 18 : lol times three
Map 19 : Good
Map 20 : lol times four but the nearby sorcery target might at least pay your investment back if you don't summon more than 2-3. Still a Fail.
Overall, 2 maps where I'd want to pick Sprites as a starting spell and 18 when I don't. Not looking good and this was the best case scenario - Myrran or smaller map size is worse.
My desired outcome would be something like 75% good, 20% acceptable, and 5% Fail and/or Overpowered maps.
April 28th, 2017, 17:22
(This post was last modified: April 28th, 2017, 17:22 by Nelphine.)
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I wouldn't want good that high. That would make sprites too desirable. I would rather about 30-40% good, 10-20% fail, 5% op, 45% acceptable.
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(April 28th, 2017, 17:22)Nelphine Wrote: I wouldn't want good that high. That would make sprites too desirable. I would rather about 30-40% good, 10-20% fail, 5% op, 45% acceptable.
If you have a 40% chance of it actually working, would you spend a pick on it?
I rather pick Web or something that is guaranteed to help. There aren't enough common spell picks to just get it as an "extra" if you end up not using them, and unlike other spells, these do absolutely nothing for you past the early game, they are a very specialized unit. (also, it's two picks in reality, you need Earth Lore. But I might want to get that anyway, it's really OP now.)
(I admit the measurement doesn't include some possible but rare advantages so a balanced amount is probably closer to 50-60% good, 30-35% acceptable to account for the cases where those things appear)
...either way we are very far from the goal, as is we got 10% good maps in the best case scenario.
(also note a "good" map still doesn't mean the strategy will win you the game. It merely means you're likely to do better than using average strategies if and only if you execute the strategy perfectly and don't get attacked BEFORE it pays off which is still a huge gamble. With other strategies you're safe from that because you summoned troops that can protect your cities in emergencies without costing you too much. Sprites, well, they will protect you but the losses are too heavy and they usually are too far to do so on the map. And you have nothing else for quite a while, even if I'm optimistic, you'll need 30 turns to build up enough sprites to tackle a high end target that can fuel buying troops in cities while the AI can attack from turn 25.)
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but those 3 picks are on TOP of whatever else you're doing. that means as long as your main strategy is only 9 picks, then you have a good strategy PLUS sprites for a possible great start.
That's why it can't be as high as 50%. If its higher than 50%, then you provide your main strategy a huge boost. And since earth lore is really good for many strategies, that means sprites really are only 1 pick. 1 pick to give a good strategy a great start, can't be reliable. Or everyone will just incorporate it into all strategies. You don't want EVERY human player to choose sprites off the start because it has a good chance of being a great boost to whatever they're actually planning.
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Could you upload a version of Magic.EXE which isn't anime?
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(April 28th, 2017, 23:05)Catwalk Wrote: Could you upload a version of Magic.EXE which isn't anime?
Done, please get CasterEXP6.zip it includes that as well as the new sprite calculator in tools.zip
April 29th, 2017, 03:11
(This post was last modified: April 29th, 2017, 03:20 by Seravy.)
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(April 28th, 2017, 19:34)Nelphine Wrote: but those 3 picks are on TOP of whatever else you're doing. that means as long as your main strategy is only 9 picks, then you have a good strategy PLUS sprites for a possible great start.
That's why it can't be as high as 50%. If its higher than 50%, then you provide your main strategy a huge boost. And since earth lore is really good for many strategies, that means sprites really are only 1 pick. 1 pick to give a good strategy a great start, can't be reliable. Or everyone will just incorporate it into all strategies. You don't want EVERY human player to choose sprites off the start because it has a good chance of being a great boost to whatever they're actually planning.
No strategy is 9 picks - you always need more spells and books if you can get them.
I agree it can't be reliable - but having the treasure on the map does not make it so by itself. Going for a Sprites leaves you vulnerable against early attacks, making it inherently riskier than other strategies.
A more important problem I discovered - Earth Elementals were not listed as sprites doable in the tool. Need to fix that ASAP.
Other revisions are also needed : Sprites should be marked considered impossible at a quantity of 5 or high. Chaos Spawn should be as well - they move 2 and have gaze so you can't evade them if there are many surviving units. Hell Hound should be limited at 6 and even that might be too much - in my experience these can kill sprites if they have the same number as them with their breath attacks. Lizard should be limited at 4, I don't think 6 is realistic, I even failed doing 4 in one of my games.
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Using the fixed tool changes things a little :
Code: Opening file #1
3 Great Lizard + 0 None 950 Node/Tower Distance :13
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 450 Node/Tower Distance :4
2 Unicorns + 2 Guardian Spirit 618 Distance :3
4 Werewolves + 0 None 618 Distance :10
1 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 418 Distance :5
Opening file #2
1 Great Lizard + 5 War Bears 726 Node/Tower Distance :10
7 Earth Elemental + 2 War Bears 872 Node/Tower Distance :14
4 Cockatrices + 4 Sprites 997 Distance :5
1 Earth Elemental + 4 Sprites 0 Distance :11
2 Phantom Beast + 3 Nagas 520 Distance :14
2 Sprites + 3 War Bears 330 Distance :14
Opening file #3
3 Cockatrices + 3 Earth Elemental 718 Distance :12
6 Werewolves + 2 Skeleton 675 Distance :12
1 Great Lizard + 1 Sprites 531 Distance :10
1 Nagas + 4 Phantom Warriors 288 Distance :6
7 War Bears + 0 None 375 Distance :9
2 Phantom Beast + 3 Phantom Warriors 243 Distance :9
Opening file #4
3 Cockatrices + 2 War Bears 675 Node/Tower Distance :10
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 768 Node/Tower Distance :6
6 Earth Elemental + 3 Sprites 1008 Distance :14
3 Werewolves + 4 Skeleton 173 Distance :7
4 Werewolves + 3 Skeleton 278 Distance :14
1 Unicorns + 7 Guardian Spirit 68 Distance :14
7 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 468 Distance :5
6 Nagas + 2 Phantom Warriors 435 Distance :14
Opening file #5
2 Great Lizard + 4 Sprites 104 Node/Tower Distance :12
8 War Bears + 0 None 412 Distance :8
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 0 Distance :7
2 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 78 Distance :11
Opening file #6
3 Unicorns + 1 Guardian Spirit 168 Distance :3
4 Skeleton + 0 None 0 Distance :11
8 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 382 Distance :12
1 Cockatrices + 2 Sprites 503 Distance :4
1 Cockatrices + 0 None 193 Distance :14
Opening file #7
3 Cockatrices + 1 Sprites 473 Distance :12
2 Unicorns + 0 None 518 Distance :12
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 255 Distance :7
4 Zombies + 0 None 258 Distance :8
6 Nagas + 1 Phantom Warriors 307 Distance :15
1 Chaos Spawn + 3 Hell Hounds 553 Distance :9
3 War Bears + 0 None 280 Distance :8
2 Hell Hounds + 1 Fire Elemental 238 Distance :13
5 Werewolves + 0 None 610 Distance :10
Opening file #8
2 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 718 Node/Tower Distance :4
4 Cockatrices + 0 None 1018 Node/Tower Distance :4
3 Sprites + 0 None 358 Distance :13
2 Nagas + 5 Phantom Warriors 285 Distance :2
Opening file #9
4 Great Wyrm + 4 Sprites 3160 Node/Tower Distance :12
4 Great Lizard + 2 Cockatrices 1582 Node/Tower Distance :6
1 Cockatrices + 7 War Bears 540 Node/Tower Distance :2
5 Phantom Beast + 0 None 618 Node/Tower Distance :9
4 Cockatrices + 0 None 750 Node/Tower Distance :15
1 Cockatrices + 4 Sprites 375 Distance :8
6 Phantom Beast + 0 None 532 Distance :14
2 Werewolves + 3 Zombies 473 Distance :9
7 Skeleton + 0 None 258 Distance :10
3 Werewolves + 6 Skeleton 457 Distance :10
1 Werewolves + 5 Skeleton 255 Distance :9
3 Unicorns + 0 None 318 Distance :9
5 War Bears + 0 None 393 Distance :5
Opening file #10
5 Unicorns + 2 Guardian Spirit 920 Distance :8
4 Skeleton + 0 None 160 Distance :10
3 Werewolves + 5 Skeleton 593 Distance :11
5 Skeleton + 0 None 68 Distance :4
2 Cockatrices + 1 Earth Elemental 570 Distance :9
7 War Bears + 0 None 375 Distance :8
Opening file #11
5 Cockatrices + 1 War Bears 1190 Node/Tower Distance :6
1 Cockatrices + 5 War Bears 618 Node/Tower Distance :11
7 Unicorns + 0 None 1312 Distance :13
8 War Bears + 0 None 558 Distance :6
1 Hell Hounds + 8 Fire Elemental 403 Distance :11
1 Phantom Beast + 0 None 218 Distance :15
7 Nagas + 0 None 208 Distance :6
8 War Bears + 0 None 558 Distance :13
Opening file #12
6 Werewolves + 1 Zombies 903 Distance :9
4 Great Lizard + 4 Earth Elemental 975 Distance :11
1 Great Lizard + 7 Earth Elemental 1851 Distance :14
6 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 268 Distance :10
2 Phantom Beast + 0 None 270 Distance :7
1 Chaos Spawn + 6 Hell Hounds 510 Distance :8
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 343 Distance :14
Opening file #13
2 Cockatrices + 2 Sprites 320 Node/Tower Distance :9
2 Earth Elemental + 2 War Bears 600 Node/Tower Distance :14
1 Great Lizard + 3 War Bears 616 Node/Tower Distance :14
2 Hell Hounds + 2 Fire Elemental 268 Distance :12
5 Hell Hounds + 0 None 300 Distance :7
2 War Bears + 0 None 228 Distance :11
3 Werewolves + 0 None 493 Distance :12
1 Sprites + 6 War Bears 390 Distance :13
Opening file #14
3 Chaos Spawn + 0 None 868 Node/Tower Distance :8
3 Werewolves + 0 None 493 Distance :8
3 Hell Hounds + 0 None 253 Distance :14
2 Sprites + 0 None 278 Distance :10
2 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 218 Distance :12
5 Zombies + 0 None 293 Distance :15
1 Earth Elemental + 1 War Bears 373 Distance :2
Opening file #15
3 Cockatrices + 2 War Bears 903 Node/Tower Distance :2
Opening file #16
2 Nagas + 6 Phantom Warriors 408 Distance :14
4 Phantom Beast + 1 Nagas 435 Distance :15
3 Werewolves + 1 Zombies 378 Distance :10
Opening file #17
4 Cockatrices + 4 Sprites 427 Node/Tower Distance :15
2 Unicorns + 5 Guardian Spirit 570 Distance :10
4 Chaos Spawn + 1 Fire Elemental 798 Distance :14
3 Sprites + 0 None 272 Distance :12
9 Zombies + 0 None 433 Distance :7
Opening file #18
3 Guardian Spirit + 0 None 118 Distance :8
2 Werewolves + 1 Zombies 403 Distance :6
1 Sprites + 6 War Bears 378 Distance :11
3 Phantom Warriors + 0 None 0 Distance :6
1 Great Lizard + 1 Earth Elemental 501 Distance :4
Opening file #19
2 Earth Elemental + 7 War Bears 903 Node/Tower Distance :10
8 Phantom Beast + 0 None 918 Node/Tower Distance :5
2 Great Lizard + 4 War Bears 870 Node/Tower Distance :10
3 Great Wyrm + 3 Sprites 1875 Distance :15
5 Cockatrices + 1 War Bears 1148 Distance :2
2 Hell Hounds + 0 None 208 Distance :14
7 Zombies + 2 Skeleton 403 Distance :11
2 Nagas + 0 None 258 Distance :14
3 War Bears + 0 None 283 Distance :15
Opening file #20
3 Fire Elemental + 0 None 208 Distance :11
2 Earth Elemental + 4 War Bears 100 Distance :5
6 Nagas + 3 Phantom Warriors 613 Distance :3
1 Chaos Spawn + 3 Hell Hounds 412 Distance :7
Average total treasure :3810
Map 1 : still acceptable, there is 1 additional low strength target. Seems the previous run failed to detect werewolves as well.
Map 2 : acceptable now : there is an additional node with earth elementals.
Map 3 : acceptable : there are a few mid value (~700) targets but no node.
Map 4 : looks Good now, two nodes and some decent other targets.
Map 5 : still a Fail
Map 6 : Fail
Map 7 : Acceptable
Map 8 : Acceptable
Map 9 : Good, might be Overpowered even.
Map 10 : Acceptable
Map 11 : Good I think
Map 12 : Acceptable - no node but lots of earth elementals for good money
Map 13 : Acceptable - semi-decent targets but too large distances.
Map 14 : Acceptable
Map 15 : Still a fail - 3 cockatrices node requires too many sprites and there is no other target to fund it.
Map 16 : Fail
Map 17 : Fail
Map 18 : Fail
Map 19 : Good
Map 20 : Fail
So we have 4 Good (20%), 9 Acceptable and 7 Fails. Better but still far below the desired 40-70% good.
I'll try implementing new algorithm "A" and do another test with that.
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