Extreme chaos games

[jhsidi]

Playing trolls, I've probably cast it 30-40 times now (plus some savescumming to see how different battles work out with it).

Becoming undead after the fact is quite common. Unfortunately I wasn't paying much attention, I just observed that a lot of my trolls are now undead -- although they only have that 1 trait, and are missing all the bonuses that undead get, like cold / illusions immunity. For non-regenerating units (like my triremes) it's a bit of a death sentence, as they're set to 1 HP and cannot heal. I think, but can't be sure, that the Animated flag may have also been leaving them undead.

Many of the castings result in nothing except for the base unit improvements, which is fine. I'm also counting the enchantments like wind walking, water walking, etc that are completely useless in battle. I'd say half of the time it ends up this way; it's sort of a negative, as the mana would probably be better spent on a lightning bolt.

But some of the time... oh, lawdy. I got invaded by 4 troll shamans in a village guarded by 1 draconian swordsman with only two figures left. I figured it was lost, so I cast Mystic Surge: invisible, regenerating, iron skin, flame blade (wasn't already on it) and a bunch of other stuff. This one unit of swordsman had 8 attack / 10 defense! Obviously, the shamans didn't survive

I did some savescumming attacking an enemy fortress with just some halberdiers, and managed to pull off invisible / magic immune / about 4-5 other enchantments. Again, completely improbable win.

Sometimes, it may be a bit too strong. OTOH it's not really more powerful than, say, pulling off confusion or possess on a very powerful unit with high resistance. But it's certainly more fun than either of those

[zhantul]

Engineers and Settlers are exempt from this check, so if you really need to explore their terriotory, you can use those. (Yes, that will be slow)
I could add melding units as another exception but honestly I don't think I want to encourage the player scouting territory they aren't supposed to enter. Wait until you have an Alliance and you can enter with anything.

Also, this is at least clear and easy to understand. A rule like "no more than 18 total attack strength worth of units" would be confusing and hard to keep track of for the player.

Quite interesting. Another thing I've learned from this game. Some settlers have 2 movement so I might use them. You are right about using only non-combat units. I would be hard to describe where to draw a line, let alone to program it. There is one unit that could be added and that's floating island for exploring coastlines.

Hmm. I think I'll adapt a strategy from Nelphine. Focus magic engineers...

[Nelphine]

Only Lizardman settlers have move 2. But they come with water walking, so that's not bad. Toss endurance on them too.

Why would you focus magic engineers? They still won't be strong enough to threaten anything.

[Seravy]

Started the next Chaos game. At the end of this game (or, if I feel I need more data, the next one - would be nice to play Sprites at least one more time on the new type of maps), I'll release the current experimental version as 4.01 - there have been a lot of important changes that should be included in the main release ASAP. I'm going to leave any changes to AI overland spell priorities for 4.02, as that will be another feature that requires extensive testing before release.
My first observation this game - Fire Elementals don't have the intended +1 defense. I seem to have raised resistance instead by accident - they had 4 in both columns. Reuploaded the fixed version in CasterEXP8.zip.
Without this +1 defense, the Fire Elemental got easily overwhelmed by some neutral klackon halberdiers (no magic weapons) and killed in just a turn or two. Once I fixed it, the elemental lasted longer and was able to kill a whole unit and damage the rest before it got killed.
My second observation - Sage Master is kinda ridiculous - without spending on research, I'm getting my common spells all done in no time. It's 1402 and I only have Warp Creature remaining despite "skipping" 5 turns of research - those went towards Gargoyles and I did push it to max during then. With just 7 RP from my cities, I'm producing 22 RP instead. The flat +9 from Sage Master more than doubles my RP production, and then Specialist and books gets applied on top for an additional +6.
This explains why I never felt the need to reduce the cost of Gargoyles - I played Chaos with Sage Master so the 400 RP was done as fast as 200 was in other realms without the retort.
I think the bonus should be reduced to a more reasonable +4.

Now the game itself :
Playing Halflings, Sage Master and Specialist. Yes, the setup I failed winning so many times. If the buffs can fix Chaos early game then this should be an effective strategy now. Lagre map and High power.
I started on a fairly large continent which is all mine and contains 3 neutrals - a klackon, elf and high men city.
I intend to use Gargoyles only for self defense for a while and fill up the continent with halfling and elf cities, which should provide me with research and power. Once I have those and survive the early game, Chaos is unstoppable.
So far I only met one wizard - Yukari with Sorcery/Death Gnolls, Guardian, and starting fairly far from my own position. They're maniacal expansionists so hurray for diplomacy changes on expansionist wars. Still, peace probably won't last too long.

[Seravy]

Next wizard - Silver, Sorcery+Life and 1 Chaos book, alchemy, artificier. Looks like their race is nomads. Also very far from me, right next to the other wizard. Hope a war breaks out. This one is lawful pragmatist.
Conquered the klackon city using the fire elementals, but took 3 battles. Not going to try the high men until I have more gargoyles - priests are defending it.
An outpost belonging to the third wizard shows up on this continent halfway between my continent and those two wizards. Haven't seen the owner yet. This area also has a large high men city with many priests. Can't hope to conquer it right now and it's probably going to be hard to defend location.
Reimu casts Just Cause. Either she is that wizard, or she is on Myrror. Most likely playing all Life books. Not sure if that's good or bad anymore, the AI is much better at Life now and it's one of the two realms that can counter the Armageddon/Wasting/Call the void tactic. The purple flag on the outpost and the purple color on Just Cause reveals she is on Arcanus, and she built a second outpost so most likely started on an island around there. Lizardmen outposts...then maybe not. Not happy to see those.
Many Nagas in a Sorcery node in this area. Gargoyles are immune to poison, I can attack it if I get more of them.
I find a place with a few skeletons. A unit of gargoyles should be plenty...but there are night stalkers. Lost a gargoyle. I need to remember not to attack death and sorcery locations without scouting, as invisible units can be inside.

I'm surprised how slowly the AI is going up on graphs. Not sure if this is the result of the production bonus reduction or fixing the ranged unit value. Probably both.

First contact with Reimu. Chaotic Theurgist and 10 Life ax expected. Guardian, 1 Nature book. Starting relation at tense because I'm all Chaos, meaning war will be declared. Not happy but I have to expand that way anyway.
A turn after writing this, war starts.
Bad. My continent is fairly large and lizardmen can appear from any direction. Fortunately my capital is already producing a Fighter's Guild and has Coal, but I have like 3 Gargoyles to defend my entire continent (8 cities/outposts).

[Seravy]

Good news - Reimu is at war with Yukari.
Not so good news - she seems to originate from a long extending peninsula attached to my continent, so I wasn't alone. It doesn't make much difference with lizardmen I guess.
I find their capital and a Sorcery node next to it with "few nagas". Nice find, except, based on the previous attempt, there might be Air Elementals - and this location isn't exactly where I can just send a spearmen to find out.

Reimu doesn't have Star Fies yet, and no Web from the Nature book - so I can attack her outposts with gargoyles. I'm not confident in gargoyles fighting lizardmen swordsmen with heroism and holy armor, but shatter can help with that.
Unfortunately she seems to have War Bears.

I don't have enough power income to summon gargoyles and use spells in combat. I will need to do something about that - but for now I'm happy my capital can start producing Slingers. the high men city has a parthenon - maybe I should merge my gargoyles and try to conquer it. I don't even have the 7 MP to cast Shatter...
I do have 5 gargoyles though. That should be able to do something...also, 3 turns to finish researching immolation!

I'm able to destroy an outpost, by converting gold to make 7 MP. Now I'm on 0 gold again. Still, I think I'm doing fairly well, if I can stay out of trouble, I can win. There are other Sorcery nodes that have "Phantom Beast" and "many Nagas" reported - there has to be one without air elementals. Just need to find out, and I might be able to get a node.

I discover another High Men city, at a southern peninsula between me and Reimu. 4 Priests, but I have 5 gargoyles, all nearby. This is going to be mine!


Meanwhile, Silver and Yukari also start a war. Things are looking better and better every minute.
   
The current state of the map.

Capturing the neutral city was successful and I lost no gargoyle.
Scouting results : both sorcery noes have air elementals as the secondary monster. However, the Chaos node with "a Fire Giant" should be doable. In worst case, it might have 8 Hell Hounds though. I send a spearmen to find out - it's 2 Fire Giants and 7 Gargoyles. Guess I'm not going to get a node for a while.
A stray Javelineer attacks one of my new cities. Shatter disables it, so my swordsmen can kill the javelineer. The AI puts heroism and bless on it afterwards but it's not helping any.

My military power is starting to catch up to Silver - the fault of my slingers I believe. Being lawful in a war against a much stronger wizard than herself, she most likely won't be able to declare war...until she gets peace with Yukari at the very least.

[Seravy]

   
It seems that getting a good start, and enemies who fight each other can now allow the human player to get ahead on the graphs without having to conquer or play an early strategy. Don't think I've seen that happen in a while at Extreme difficulty. The AI production reduction of 166->150 seems to have had a fairly large impact. ofc I don't expect to be ahead of the Myrran wizard, but still, this is the kind of graph I'm used to seeing on Hard nowadays, not Extreme. And especially not when playing Chaos.
That's all for today, tbc tomorrow.

PS : These hard sorcery nodes with the hidden air elementals suck. No easy nodes or treasure anymore. 5 years and I haven't yet cleared a single lair or node. The new maps might not be very player friendly, still. Better than drakes everywhere and the AI getting an advantage on them though.

[jhsidi]

In my latest Chaos game (I'm Myrran / trolls / specialist / channeler) I've reached 18 cities around 1410, without any serious opposition. I'm pretty much a bully to the two Myrran sorcery users. Feels like 166 > 150 may have been too much of a change. It's just 10% difference but the compound effects of 50-100 turns may make a big difference even with a small difference in starting production. (I'm not sure how to calculate compound returns on settling and building out cities, but it could be quite substantial..)

As I suspected from my first game, Flame Blade is now my go-to strategy and use for most of my early mana. +3 attack makes a big difference. I'd probably be saying it's too much except, focus magic is still significantly stronger (considering ranged units get off with no damage in battle). Still, FC costs a lot more and has 2 maintenance.. maybe +2 attack would be more suitable for FB at common level.

[Seravy]

Continuing my game.

Reimu offered peace. She has only 4 cities and her war bears got dangerously close to one of mine so I accept. Turns pass by without anything happening - my cities are growing, and so does my research and power. I explore a Chaos node with "few chaos spawn" to find many chimeras. A stack of 9 slingers is ready and I start buffing them with flame blade - but 5 chimeras sounds a bit too risky. A lair with Fire Giants only has 2 of them and fire elementals - I can attack that safely later with a weaker slinger stack. A tower with 7 chaos spawn - a lot but flame blade slingers hit hard. I'm able to clear it out, finding a Summon Champion spell and a wand with Flame Strikex1. No heroes yet. Funny that I found an easy tower before any easy nodes.
I explore two more chaos spawn lairs. One of them has 4 spawns, the other only one and some fire elementals, both easy targets. I notice Reimu got a Chaos Node - the one marked "a few fire giants". It was near to her capital so I didn't try to go after that one. As soon as I have a comfortable amount of slingers, I'll resume the war. While my slingers head towards those Chaos Spawns, my gargoyles will explore Myrror.
I finished researching Fire Storm! I definitely need more casting skill now, and for that, more power.
The place with 1 chaos spawn and 4 fire elementals yields a "Crystal Ball" an orb with True Sight, 2 defense, 1 attack, 10 skill. Not impressive but useful.
I clear the 2 fire giants and 5 fire elementals using 7 unbuffed slingers - but lose 3 of them. 718 total gold/mana, worth it but not very good.
Exploring Myrror. The continent appears to be unclaimed and fairly decent size. There is a large neutral city with draconians and mithril+iron.
I find some Orihalcon and Mithril in the other direction. Even has silver and wild game. A settler belonging to the Myrran wizard shows up nearby. All nature, maniacal militarist, and we have a starting relation of "tense". War is inevitable so I might as well stop that settler soon. Or maybe just steal the city they build?
Reimu has an Astral Gate - don't know if she made it through or the other side is blocked yet. I should focus on this plane for now and ignore Arcanus. The Myrran wizard is about twice as powerful as anyone there.
My gargoyles get me a 2 pop troll city with adamant. The war declaration happens - a militarist type, was expecting a low relation type but I guess both applied for the situation. They put the settler on a place that's not using Orihalcon. I'm going to destroy that, it's beastmen btw.
I find some dwarves neutral cities. Not sure if my lone gargoyle can deal with 6-8 halberdiers. Might need a fire elemental with immolation but skill is probably low for that. I'm pretty much as powerful as everyone else on Arcanus so I better build up my garrisons - there will be wars coming eventually.

[Seravy]

I managed to take control of the dwarf neutral - don't expect to keep it long though. Reimu declared war - the 9 flame blade slingers are heading towards her capital and fire storm is being cast to deal with that problem. I'm not comfortable being at war with a lizardmen wizard while I still have some cities that have only 1 swordsmen. Fortunately I have started filling the cities closer to her with slingers - most of them only have one though.
A Gift event!
   
The same turn, the first hero shows up. It's the Rogue...without heroism to boost her Legendary*, not sure if this hero is of any use to me. She can't use the staff, and being invisible is no use either because she can't shoot. If I had 200 casting skill it would be a different story but for now I need a hero that can deal damage. She has Lucky though which is nice. Still, rejecting, this isn't a hero a chaos wizard needs.
Yukari declares war as well. So many things happening this turn. Might be a problem, incoming nagas and noncorporeal ghouls are likely. Has Sorcery which means chance of Guardian Wind - I have no answers for that. Reimu learned Star Fires, but I still manage to raze her pop 1 city with a gargoyle.
Silver casts AEther Binding, then the game crashes. Haven't seen that happen in a while. After reloading there is no crash 3 times but happens the fourth time. I think there is a pattern - it doesn't happen after loading, but happens if I load, end turn, load again and then end turn. Might be the AI's continent selection again?
Now that I know the timing for the crash, I enable dosbox logging before pressing next turn. 5 minutes of waiting and the crash happens. It seems to happen where the strategic combat calculates the number of undead to raise. Probably related to the casting skill fix? There are no banished wizards in the game though.
...log also says the wizard who won the battle is wizard #9939, well that is definitely broken. Can't help to think that new allocation is not safe, time to investigate.

...nope, even if I disable that part, the game is crashing. Well that's good news but what is the bug then I wonder. Not a fan of this solution but I have to reveal the map and see which combat is causing it.
...well, Silver's Floating Island attacks Yukari's settler. I suppose that is a battle where both sides lose, as they both have zero power. Let's see what happens in tied battles...well, the "winner" variable stays undefined and...that's it? That's all? For real? It skips setting who wins and continues? Well, that's not good...