RBP3 IT Office - Email and technical issues

[Exploit]

I just did the above time stamp test and there is a 12 minute difference between the times on this forum and the civstats times. That would mean that Sunrise posted his message 2 minutes after I logged into the game.

A cynical person might think that they realized I had logged in before them to make my move and they were worried about missing their window of opportunity so they hastily posted their war declaration in this forum to try to regain the initiative.

At this point, I definitely claim the first half of this turn.

[Mukha]

Here again are all the rules currently governing turn splits in war time

Poll 15: Dividing Wartime Turn Splits -
*Attacker's choice (attacker chooses when to declare, defender get opposite half of the turn)

Poll 16: Permitted Actions During Wartime Turn Splits -
*All non-unit actions allowed - No moving units, promoting units, upgrading units, or drafting units, aka the Apolyton demogame rule

Poll 28: Double-move Rule -
Modified RBP2 double-move rule
Quote:
(a) - All settler moves that result in ending a turn in neutral territory must occur 12 hours (in-game) after the last movement of that settler, if applicable.
(b) - REMOVED
© - REMOVED
(d) - When in doubt, act in good faith.
(e) - Upon declaring war, no unit may be moved until 12 hours (in-game) have passed from the unit's last movement AND the attacker has to have (secretly) followed the turn split rule the turn before the declaration of war if they wish to be able to move first during the war.
(f) - (a) is waived for the initial settler

Please could everyone note that it does not matter when the defender last moved units/logged in/did anything whatsoever. As the rules currently stand and were voted on, it's the attacker's choice and they simply have to have moved their units in the time frame of their choice the turn before declaration. That's the entirety of the rule as far as I can tell.

[sunrise089]

Thank you Mukha, that is correct.

All, I apologize for allowing Exploit's posts to let me get off track and off topic. Exploit is, intentionally or not, trying to use non-existent rules to modify the turn split guidelines.

Does anyone on any team other than Exploit's feel that DJCiv violated any rules here? If not, then I think it's pretty clear that we're entitled to the first half of the turn from here on out.

Now, the remaining question is what about Exploit's unit moves (potentially) made before we DOW'd? I feel Exploit's behavior is very much in bad faith - this is the second RBP game in a row he has tried to use nonexistent rules to try and affect the movement order after a DOW. He pauses the game without communicating the fact that he plans to do so and while other players are logged in. He stays in game after we've DOW'd despite me notifying him we're claiming the first half of the turn. He's also accused me of trying to quickly log in and DOW him upon seeing him log in via civstats (in this case I have a non-DJCiv witness - Speaker, who I was chatting with on TS about the imminent login and DOW for at least 10 minutes before I actually logged in). I also wonder why it is so vital unit moves made before Exploit was aware of our DOW take place before we're able to move - perhaps Exploit coincidentally wanted to move additional defenders into his threatened city? If it isn't that, and it's merely moving workers or whatnot then why must they move before us? And, all of this comes after Exploit's established a pattern of very quick "End Turns" followed by much lengthier logins later in the turn.

All of that said, I don't feel very conciliatory towards Exploit, and certainly wish darrell (our fall guy!) had just made it onto TS 5 minutes earlier I think the best solution would be for Exploit to explain what moves he planned to make prior to learning of our DOW that absolutely must occur before DJCiv is able to move, and if no explanation is forthcoming than to allow our proposed reload to remove all possible allegations of spoiled unit movement. HOWEVER I also recognize DJCiv has no right to demand Exploit not have moved prior to our DOW (though as soon as we did DOW the turn split rule certainly prohibits additional Exploit moves), and I don't have any proof of anything underhanded, despite my general unease.

Therefore the solution at this point seems to be to consider the turn split in effect, allow DJCiv to move, and then continue as the rules indicate with Maya and Tech sharing the second half of the turn.

What do you guys think?

[Swiss Pauli]

I think it's all very unclear. If the attacker and the defender are both moving in the same part of the turn, then I don't think the attacker can claim to have followed the turn-split rule [EDIT: without this becoming a point for debate].

[Krill]

If India don't go first then I demand a reload back to turn 13 so I get the extra worker. The rules as stated require the attacker to move in the turn slot they want on the turn prior to war declaration (ie before Exploit, which it is plain to see they did from Civstats). Ergo India go first (otherwise it is a defensive double move) and a reload is a fair request.

[Sandover]

(e) - Upon declaring war, no unit may be moved until 12 hours (in-game) have passed from the unit's last movement AND the attacker has to have (secretly) followed the turn split rule the turn before the declaration of war if they wish to be able to move first during the war.

I'm not a native english speaker so maybe I'm not the right person to comment on the "wording" of a rule, but when I read the bolded part above my enterpretation is that I need to move before the civ that I attack during the turn before the declaration and the turn in which the declaration occur (while also moving in the first half), in order to get the first half of the turn during the war. Should I fail to do this I'll need to settle for the second half, unless the defender lets me have the first half anway. This is, as I remember it from the planning thread (admittably I haven't gone back to actually check), also the way this addition to the rule was meant to work; that the attacker has to move both in the correct order and during the time frame he wants.

Civ A is going to declare on Civ B:

Civ B makes his moves.
Civ A declares war and makes his moves. Civ B now can't make any more (military) moves this turn, as he made his moves before Civ A, but if he pays attention to the game he can log in and swap tile assignments etc before the turn roll.

All good so far. New turn begin.

Civ A claims the first half and moves his units again, effectively making a double-move on Civ B.

Now this has got to be wrong, right?

If the rule is supposed to prevent double-moves from happening I think we can all agree that if the "wording" of the rule allows this to happen, that it's not doing a very good of being a rule.

[Krill]

I think now would be the time to point towards a ruleset that hasl already been reveloped for wars such as this...

[Ilios]

Civ A is going to declare on Civ B:

Civ B makes his moves.
Civ A declares war and makes his moves. Civ B now can't make any more (military) moves this turn, as he made his moves before Civ A, but if he pays attention to the game he can log in and swap tile assignments etc before the turn roll.

All good so far. New turn begin.

Civ A claims the first half and moves his units again, effectively making a double-move on Civ B.

Now this has got to be wrong, right?

If the rule is supposed to prevent double-moves from happening I think we can all agree that if the "wording" of the rule allows this to happen, that it's not doing a very good of being a rule.

So why don't we just reload from the beginning of the turn? As attacker, India gets to chose the half it wants and move first. Then Sumeria plays its turn. No double move then right?

Or we could just flip a coin to decide who wins the war...

[darrelljs]

I think it's all very unclear. If the attacker and the defender are both moving in the same part of the turn, then I don't think the attacker can claim to have followed the turn-split rule [EDIT: without this becoming a point for debate].

Why? The turn split rule simply says we get a half. It doesn't say anything about the defender's playing order as Mukha pointed out.

The point of the rule is that the defender has time to react. Of course since this is a one move attack and not a double move attack the defender doesn't have anything to react to, but he certainly had the opportunity since he was logged in for over 30 minutes according to the log Ruff posted.

Darrell

[Speaker]

I don't have a stake in this, and have only been following PB3 with very light attention. But I was chatting with Sunrise on Teamspeak before this whole sequence, and I can say that they were acting in good faith by posting their war declaration in the IT thread, in order to follow the rules and avoid controversy (which sadly failed). Their attack was a one-move on Exploit's city, which he could not have seen coming. He should not be given the right to now get to act with the information of their attack, and possibly defend what (maybe?) would have died.

This argument is all semantics in my opinion. A one-move, direct hit attack can occur at any time. Argue about the turn timer split for the following action after that. But the one-move attack against whatever units were in the city at the time of DoW should be allowed to proceed.