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Trying a focus magic cockatrices game. Started out with earth lore and sprites, took a node and some lairs.
My first opponent (8 nature, tactician, other stuff) had his fortress adjacent to my node. He had some swordsmen, some war bears and some sprites defending, so I kept peaceful relations.
Until I got 9 sprites with resist magic; I then looked, and his fortress now had 9 sprites with no buffs.
So I attacked and defeated him.
If he had kept a few war bears, I would have lost.
While sprites are strong, I don't think the AI should ever Garrison their fortress with more than 6 sprites - anyone who can beat 6 sprites can beat 9, and sprites have far too low health.
Is it possible to reduce priority of sprites for garrison's after there are already 6?
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No, garrison priority is just a constant for that type of unit that tells the AI to push the one with the lowest such value outside if there is a 10th unit produced. Originally there was no such constant and it used "unit cost+2*levels" or something like that, but I was able to use an empty byte in the unit tables to add it. (the +2*levels part is still there, helps keep high level heroes instead of very rare creatures while still sending low level heroes out.)
So it's either only bears, or only sprites, can't mix them, unless the two have the exact same constant priority.
We might be able to add some additional rules that modify the constants but the space is limited so it needs to be simple. Anything as complex as checking all the other units for each unit is out.
btw I don't think keeping bears in this case is much of a help - bears can't attack the flying sprites. Unless you run out of ammo, bears lose to your sprites. (and considering your setup, adding focus magic to the sprites to make sure they have the firepower to win was an option.)
June 22nd, 2017, 11:35
(This post was last modified: June 22nd, 2017, 11:39 by Nelphine.)
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I'm not sure. With 3 war bears, I could see my sprites dying to lightning before the bears died. But in general, 9 sprites only ever shows up in the fortress and it has way too many weaknesses. Not only to resist elements sprites, but also to other AI.
So if it can't be based on other units, what kind of things could it be? It only becomes a problem with sprites, and really only sprites in fortresses - they simply don't have the HP to let the lightning do its job. (Any other garrison, the main damage would come from the sprites themselves, so they're generally better than war bears.)
I'd almost be tempted to say for a fortress war bears are better than sprites. The only time thats not true is against things like shadow demons (high enough HP lightning wont be enough, and with strong ranged attack and fly) or great wyrm types (very high HP, vety high damage, but can't hit flying units). But most of those units are advanced enough I'm not sure it should be worried about - maybe just make war bears better but only for a fortress?
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Sprites are pretty effective against every melee normal unit - they don't fly and usually can't attack flying enemies.
They are also effective against ranged units - they attack first and ranged units don't have the health to survive that.
Bears on the other hand are not good against either of those - unless the attacking units are really weak.
Also, for every bear kept in and sprite sent out, that's one fewer bear and more sprites that is going to be used to attack things - and sprites are horrible at that.
...actually, wait, the units are already stored in an array here? It's not that impossible to use the type of other units then. Depends on how much space I can make but if the rule is not too complex, it seems doable.
Something like "-2 for each exactly identical unit" could work? Or not? Would replace swordsmen with spearmen and halberdiers with swordsmen, meh. Mixing those is not helping.
Maybe "-2 for each other ranged unit, if unit is also ranged" or "-2 for each identical unit, if unit is ranged"?
...and I need to remember where else was the priority from this table used. I think there was another...oh yes, Earth Gate... now, changing that would be difficult, as it does not select 1 out of 10 units to kick out...and I don't want the two to result in different order of units. Doing so would result in this scenario (imagine higher tier units like Gorgons and Sky Drakes, same deal) : Capital has 9 sprites, 1 bear, so kick out sprite, there are too many. Earth gate prefers sprites over bears still - as the number of each unit at each location is not known during distribution, only after everything is assigned to a location. So Sprites move to the capital, bears move to another city. Net result : One city that does not have too many sprites yet (probably only had one) loses their sprite and gain a bear. Repeat this every time the AI produces a unit in their capital that can replace the sprite. Overall result - the AI's garrisons will be losing all their sprites through the "leak" in the capital and get replaced by inferior bears.
...so I think it's better to just leave this alone as it would break Earth Gate.
June 22nd, 2017, 12:18
(This post was last modified: June 22nd, 2017, 12:20 by Nelphine.)
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Remember, I only want this for the fortress, because neither sprites nor bears do as much damage as the lightning. And that means it isn't for any higher tier unit either.
This is only a 'sprite vs things with noticeably more health and armor, like war bears, and only when in fortress' screnario.
Higher tier units do enough damage that lightning won't be the main damage source. Other cities don't have lightning so the first round attack by sprites is significant.
Ideally, in the fortress you'd simply limit it to 6 sprites,and not change anything else.
Multiple of most units is definitely a good thing. Sprites just happen to be a glass cannon, and so low tier that lightning is better.
Technically bowmen would fall into this too, and lomgbowmen, but they already virtually never end up in the fortress.
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Quote:Multiple of most units is definitely a good thing.
No, it's not.
Only magical ranged units? Golem.
Only arrow ranged units? Guardian Wind.
Only melee units? Anything flying ranged.
etc
And this affects higher tier units, for example only great wyrms is weak to flying ranged attacks.
It's also weak to strategic combat inconsistencies, such as all magician garrisons underperforming due to no effect of "caster" and "missile immnunity".
No, all the same units is usually a bad thing unless that same unit is a higher tier than the other options. This doesn't mean mixed is better if it's just done randomly - in my experience the ideal ratio is 1-3 melee units for 6-8 ranged (of one or both types).
"Only fortress" still causes the same amount of unit leak through earth gate in high tier units - because the fortress is where they get assigned first. (It's not relevant if it's only sprites but I don't think there is a point in all that work for a single unit. Most stacks that can crush 9 sprites can also deal with 6 sprites and 3 other common units - at worst, the attacker needs an extra stack of 3-4 units, or some buffs on their attacking stack. Yes, it delays the attacker by a few turns but...that's about it. And we are cherry picking a special case here - in many cases 9 sprites perform better, as the attacker doesn't have an unlimited capacity of attacking flying units.)
June 22nd, 2017, 13:38
(This post was last modified: June 22nd, 2017, 13:47 by Nelphine.)
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The reason I'm cherry picking sprites is the early game is the time when glaring problems are most noticeable. This isn't the first time I've seen this, because almost every single game has an AI who defends their fortress with sprites. No other units see as much game time as commons. Should you fix it for others? Probably. But I can't name a single other init that consistently has this problem.
Sprites are also one of the few creatures with high Garrison value and spectacularly bad strategic value, which makes them also allow for AI to banish each other even if the attacking AI couldn't hurt any other cities.
Your examples of other possibilities are poor as well. How many wizards do you defeat where you have access to golems? I'd wager its less than 1 in 10. Guardian wind? When was the last time you saw any arrow attack units in a fortress? (Slingers on pure life is the only thing that comes to mind, and any life summons past guardian spirit will take priority.)
Flying units against melee? Sprites are the most common attacking example, and ligtning will kill them if the AI has high HP melee units. (That is specifically what inspired this discussion.)
Sure the AI might have 9 great wyrms...how many flying units can kill 9 great wyrms? Especially with an AI wizard backing them up? Flying units vs melee is a potential problem, but that's carefully thought out in unit balance. I don't think its an issue here, if its not in overall unit balance.
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Great Wyrms, well the 6 heroes Hadriex used did it.
But considering improved regeneration of 2/turn, I wouldn't be surprised if 9 Shadow Demons did the job (by surviving the lightning bolts and regenerating, so this one means multiple battles)
Yes, Golems might be rare (not if you're Myrran though) but Elemental Armor does the same job. You can easily have that spell or an item with it from treasure.
I agree that Sprites are not the best choice for fortress garrison, and as soon as the AI gets their hand on any uncommon, they'll get replaced. But I also don't think downgrading them into another common unit helps - it does in special cases, but weakens the garrison vs other attacking stacks.
This is the entire current garrison priority list :
Code: Necromancer HERO 120
Beastmaster HERO 110
Colossus 100
Sky Drake 100
Demon Lord 95
Great Drake 95
Arch Angel 95
Illusionist HERO 90
Great Wyrm 87
Behemoth 87
Djinn 87
Efreet 85
Stone Giant 80
Storm Giant 80
Chaos Warrior HERO 80
Hydra 75
Death Knights 75
Gorgons 75
Swordsmen HERO 74
Priestess HERO 72
Shadow Demons 70
Sage HERO 70
War Monk HERO 70
Magician HERO 70
Witch HERO 70
Warlock HERO 70
Dwarf HERO 67
Warlocks 65
Nightmares 61
Golem 60
Magicians 58
Chaos Spawn 55
Wraiths 55
Angel 55
Basilisk 55
Magicians 55
Chimeras 55
Unicorns 50
Demon 50
Earth Elemental 50
Magicians 50
Paladins 50
Magicians 46
Magicians 42
Doom Bat 30
Fire Giant 29
Gargoyles 27
Dragon Turtle 25
Rangers 25
Sprites 20
Steam Cannon 20
Bard HERO 20
Paladin HERO 20
Black Knight HERO 20
Priests 18
Air Ship 18
Slingers 18
Pegasai 18
Ghouls 17
Shaman 17
Hammerhands 17
War Trolls 17
Minotaurs 16
Jackal Riders 16
Giant Spiders 15
Shaman 15
Priests 15
Horde 15
Doom Drakes 15
Stag Beetle 15
Javelineers 15
Wyvern Riders 15
Dervish HERO 15
Healer HERO 15
Huntress HERO 15
Elven Lords 14
Pikemen 14
Griffins 14
War Mammoths 14
Bowmen 13
Manticores 13
Catapult 13
Werewolves 12
Cockatrices 12
Halberdier 12
Shaman 12
Berserkers 12
Longbowmen 12
War Bears 10
Halberdier 10
Pikemen 10
Barbarian HERO 10
Orc Warrior HERO 10
Thief HERO 10
Druid HERO 10
Warrior Mage HERO 10
Assassin HERO 10
Wind Mage HERO 10
Ranger HERO 10
Draconian HERO 10
Golden One HERO 10
Ninja HERO 10
Rogue HERO 10
Amazon HERO 10
Unknown HERO 10
Elven Archer HERO 10
Knight HERO 10
Chosen HERO 10
Phantom Beast 9
Swordsmen 9
Bowmen 9
Zombies 8
Halberdier 8
Nightblades 8
Night Stalker 7
Swordsmen 7
Cavalry 7
Centaurs 7
Wolf Riders 7
Horsebowmen 7
Hell Hounds 6
Nagas 6
Fire Elemental 5
Skeletons 5
Spearmen 5
Swordsmen 5
Spearmen 3
Cavalry 3
Phantom Warrior 2
Spearmen 1
The "Good" :
Sprites can get replaced by quite a lot of normal units if they gain a level or two. So any decent mercenary will eventually replace some sprites. Levels are worth 2 points, so a Regular unit with 18 priority, or a Veteran with 16 priority has equal score to Sprites. There are also several normal units that have a higher rating even without a level, albeit not for all races.
Nomads have Rangers. Lizards have Turtles. High men, elves, halflings, orcs, trolls have magicians. Dark elves have Warlocks and Nightmares. Beastmen and Draconian also have Magicians. Dwarves have cannons.
The "bad" :
Barbarians and Gnolls don't have much, neither do Klackons. Not that a jackal rider or a berserker really helps (easy to kill with resist spells or ranged attacks) - but Stag Bettles could make some difference. A higher priority on them might be a good idea - especially as that doesn't change their relative order towards other Klackon units. It would make them preferred over much superior units such as hammerhands though...so not a good idea.
Spiders are rated lower than sprites. While this does let them get used for offense early which is better than using them in garrisons, it means if the AI gets these as their first uncommon, they are stuck with sprites. Fortunately spiders don't delay researching other uncommon creatures - in fact they aren't even researched as though they were uncommon, instead they are prioritized ahead of commons.
Cockatrices are also rated lower. This is where things start to get ugly - as it means 2 out of 3 nature uncommons can't replace sprites. Problem? Cockatrices are horrible garrison units. Even worse than sprites. Again, fortunately, knowing them does not delay researching Great Lizards - but if the AI didn't get lizards or an uncommon in another realm, then they are stuck with sprites (and normal units/heroes) until rares.
We might want to consider making the AI pick Lizards as guaranteed spells...but their other choices are stronger (Spiders, etc).
The "ugly" :
If we consider sprites being overrated garrison units, then magicians (with their 40-50 priority) might be a greater offender - and one harder to fix. They have the same lack of durability, even less efficiency in strategic combat, and can't even fly!
I think we should consider fixing this problem by changing the garrison priority of either sprites, or other (especially Nature) units, or probably both. And maybe think about the role of magicians in that list.
...the greatest problem is is, "lack of durability" is a way too situational problem. If playing Chaos, it's the most relevant thing ever. But without the ability to attack flying units effectively, it's irrelevant and in those cases, sprites and far superior to other potential units.
June 22nd, 2017, 15:18
(This post was last modified: June 22nd, 2017, 15:22 by Nelphine.)
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Magicians are amazing defenders. Much stronger attack than sprites, so their damage is meaningful even with lightning - but they also can cast dispel magic, web, fireball, confusion, healing - all things that can make life miserable for the attacker. And they have better strategic rating as soon as they are level 1, and most times, a barracks is far earlier than a wizards tower.
The specific problem again, only comes up with the fortress due to the lightning attack. Anything with at least 10 HP (as a unit), and at least 4 armor, is far better than sprites. Yes, of course I can kill war bears too - but with that endless lightning hitting me, I have to put a lot of effort into doing so because otherwise the lightning will wreck me.
I wouldn't want to change Garrison priority outside the fortress. Without lightning, sprites high offense is actually good, and is far more important than the lack of durabiliy as you mention.
I'd really like a modifier to sprite garrison rating value when in a fortress only.
Why.. Why are swordsmen higher rating than halberdiers???
I'd want sprites to be about an 8 (again, only in a fortress) but I disagree with some other choices around that rating level. But for the fortress, it shouldn't matter.
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Oh, I didn't copy the "comments" column that includes the race for generic units.
Here you go :
Code: Necromancer HERO 120
Beastmaster HERO 110 Soul Link, good for endgame capital even! (garrison will be fantastic)
Colossus 100
Sky Drake 100
Demon Lord 95
Great Drake 95
Arch Angel 95
Illusionist HERO 90 Overpowered defender, keep in capital if has levels, or no VR creatures!
Great Wyrm 87
Behemoth 87
Djinn 87
Efreet 85
Stone Giant 80
Storm Giant 80
Chaos Warrior HERO 80 Better than a Storm Giant
Hydra 75
Death Knights 75
Gorgons 75
Swordsmen HERO 74 Raise Dead!
Priestess HERO 72 Prayer, Prayermaster
Shadow Demons 70
Sage HERO 70 Has mass dispel, good capital defender
War Monk HERO 70 Super agility, extremely hard to kill
Magician HERO 70 Flame Strike!
Witch HERO 70 Black Prayer, nice for capital defense
Warlock HERO 70 Doom Bolt
Dwarf HERO 67 Has armsmaster so should stay and level other heroes in capital for a while
Warlocks 65
Nightmares 61
Golem 60
Magicians 58 Draconian
Chaos Spawn 55
Wraiths 55
Angel 55
Basilisk 55
Magicians 55 Troll
Chimeras 55
Unicorns 50
Demon 50
Earth Elemental 50
Magicians 50 High Men, Halfling
Paladins 50
Magicians 46 High Elf
Magicians 42 Other
Doom Bat 30
Fire Giant 29
Gargoyles 27
Dragon Turtle 25
Rangers 25
Sprites 20
Steam Cannon 20
Bard HERO 20
Paladin HERO 20 Send these out to fight enemies, they are better in attack teams
Black Knight HERO 20 Send these out to fight enemies, they are better in attack teams
Priests 18 High Men, Dark Elf
Air Ship 18
Slingers 18
Pegasai 18
Ghouls 17
Shaman 17 Troll
Hammerhands 17
War Trolls 17
Minotaurs 16
Jackal Riders 16
Giant Spiders 15
Shaman 15 Halfling, Draconian
Priests 15 Other
Horde 15
Doom Drakes 15
Stag Beetle 15
Javelineers 15
Wyvern Riders 15
Dervish HERO 15
Healer HERO 15
Huntress HERO 15
Elven Lords 14
Pikemen 14 Nomad
Griffins 14
War Mammoths 14
Bowmen 13 Draconian
Manticores 13
Catapult 13
Werewolves 12
Cockatrices 12
Halberdier 12 Nomad, Dark Elf, Draconian, Troll
Shaman 12 Other
Berserkers 12
Longbowmen 12
War Bears 10
Halberdier 10 Gnoll, Klackon, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Dwarf
Pikemen 10 High Men
Barbarian HERO 10
Orc Warrior HERO 10
Thief HERO 10
Druid HERO 10
Warrior Mage HERO 10
Assassin HERO 10
Wind Mage HERO 10
Ranger HERO 10
Draconian HERO 10
Golden One HERO 10
Ninja HERO 10
Rogue HERO 10
Amazon HERO 10
Unknown HERO 10
Elven Archer HERO 10
Knight HERO 10
Chosen HERO 10 Send this one out as soon as possible to gain experience!
Phantom Beast 9
Swordsmen 9 Nomad, Dark Elf, Draconian
Bowmen 9 Other
Zombies 8
Halberdier 8 Other
Nightblades 8
Night Stalker 7
Swordsmen 7 Barbarian, Gnoll, Klackon, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Dwarf, Troll
Cavalry 7 Dark Elf
Centaurs 7
Wolf Riders 7
Horsebowmen 7
Hell Hounds 6
Nagas 6
Fire Elemental 5
Skeletons 5
Spearmen 5 Nomad, Dark Elf, Draconian
Swordsmen 5 Other
Spearmen 3 Barbarian, Gnoll, Klackon, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Troll
Cavalry 3 Other
Phantom Warrior 2
Spearmen 1 Other
Guardian Spirit 0
Air Elemental 0
Settler 0 Any
Engineers 0 Any
So it's only nomad, draconian and dark elf swordsmen that are higher and only compared to basic halberdiers.
btw I don't agree with Sprites being amazing defenders in non-fortress cities. Those generally only have 1-2 units of summoned creatures, and that many sprites are very easy to get rid of (any direct damage spell, web or a few ranged units), unlike a lot of the same.
At that amount, even a spider or cockatrice contributes more.
In my experience, 2 or fewer sprites are easy. 3-4 is doable with a mainly ranged army. 5 or more is risky and difficult - until you get something that counters them directly like Flame strike, Fire Storm, or...a stack of ghouls/resist elements. This is true regardless of location - the difference is, at the fortress, not winning means losing all units while elsewhere you might be able to retreat (as sprites without ammo can't kill you) and save some of your troops.
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