ghouls

[Seravy]

Going to give a try to this next - probably on Hard or Extreme.
2 Death for ghouls, 2 Sorcery for Focus Magic - the rest I'm unsure about but most likely Spellweaver to make sure I can summon and buff them in a reasonable amount of time, and more books for power. A total cost of 80+75 = 155 per unit is hard to afford at the start.
4 Chaos, 4 Sorcery, 2 Death, Spellweaver perhaps.? I'm not sure. I could drop Chaos and go all Sorcery/Death instead.

The Myrran AI's performance is worrying, I suspect it was the neutral's fault. Most likely it produced raiders that destroyed the wizard's outposts repeatedly - albeit raiders are limited to turn 40 and later so it can't be as bad as it used to be, it might still hold back an AI massively.

[Seravy]

First attempt...I've identified a few problems with this ghouls strategy.

-Maintenance. Hard to afford. A Ghoul only costs 1 but focus Magic costs 2. That's 3 for each unit. I see a nice convenient "many cockatrices" node nearby, but I'd go bankrupt before I could summon enough buffed ghouls to actually beat it. Alchemy might be able to get around this but then you don't have the gold on buying settlers and stuff. On the other hand, if I produced my usual 9 longbowmen stack, I could do it.
-Risky nodes. I attacked one containing "many nagas" and lost the entire stack to two Air Elementals. Holding back and waiting until a spearmen explores everything or enough Earth Lores are cast is needed. The latter is hard to afford while paying 10-20 mana maintenance on the ghouls each turn and having to still summon more of them meanwhile.
-Resulting undead are...not very valuable. I got some bears (nice but I could have summoned that for 110 mp myself), a sprites (same for 80) and 3 Fire Elementals (which I was happy to have until I realized the nearby neutral city already has an alchemist's guild, making them worthless.). Certainly, some undead Hydras are amazing but for that you need a node to pay for 9 ghouls - and one you can get with fewer than that full 9 ghouls, probably no more than 5-6. At which point it's no different from the Sprites strategy - you need to first boot up the power production by finding an easy node, then you can afford going after the larger ones. No easy node nearby = failure. Problem is, for Ghouls, a lot of stuff is hard that would b easy for Sprites. Ghouls don't fly - once the 4 shots are out, they just get killed. So you can't beat 6+ Nagas with 2 ghouls - you can with sprites.
-Requires a steep investment in picks - 2 Sorcery, 2 Death, Spellweaver (you really can't afford casting 155 mana units are 18-20/turn) are essential which already costs 6 compared to the 2 of Sprites (Sprites cost 80/unit, you don't need Spellweaver. It helps but you don't need it.). Earth Lore makes things even worse - without you either have to rely on spearmen (your race needs to be barbarian otherwise they'll be really slow scouts) or take massive risks. But to pick it, you need to spend another 2 picks, pushing up the total to 8 out of 12 - while when playing Sprites it only costs 1 as you already have Nature.
-Darkness would be useful but the starting casting skill is not enough to use it immediately and with all the maintenance cost, I can't raise it quickly. Archmage instead of Spellweaver can help here but then summoning is slower.

Overall, it's not a bad strategy but so far it seems inferior to Sprites...albeit if I manage to grab an undead Hydra that can change things. So starting over, and this time no going into nodes without scouting them.

[Seravy]

Next try. (4 S, 2 N, 4 D, Spellweaver, High Elf)

Earth Lore 1 :
X Gargoyles (can't kill, too high armor, poison immunity)+Fire Elemental.
X Nigh Stalker (can't turn to undead)
X Gargoyles, many Hell Hounds
X Many Ghouls
X Many Wraiths, Ghouls
X Great Wyrm (Can't, ghouls don't fly), many Sprites 
+ Neutral 1 pop city (anything works on this, even a spearmen. Looted 2 undead spearmen, meh)

Earth Lore 2 :
X Many Phantom Beast, Air Elemental (can't turn to undead, Poison immune, Air Elemental very hard to kill, need at least 5-6 buffed ghouls here)
+ Few Phantom Beast, Phantom Warriors (doable but no undead, phantoms are immune to death)
X Many Storm Giant, Phantom Warrior. (too strong)
? enemy wizard capital
X Few Fire Giant, Hell Hounds (3-4 ranged giants = lost ghouls, maybe later)
X many Werewolves (can't turn to undead)
X Gargoyles, Hell Hounds
+ Phantom Beast, few Phantom Warriors (doable but no undead, phantoms are immune to death)

well, so far the potential undead gained are 2 spearmen....ehh and no node, the easy things are Keeps.

Earth Lore 3 :
+ Many Nagas, Phantom Beast (finally a node! How many ghouls for this I wonder? at least 6 I bet, if buffed...node bonus makes nagas durable at 6 shields)
+ Neutral High Men 3 pop (anything could take this out. Gained 4 undead swordsmen. Well, ok, that's fine but a Summon Zombie can do this much.)
X Many Skeletons (can't make undead)
...and that's all.

1401 September - my second Ghoul is ready. So slow, omg!
I'm going to convert gold into mana to get things done faster, which means no Sawmill for my High Men city from gold.
Contact with the enemy wizard. Nature+Death, Alchemy, Specialist. Not gonna attack that with 2 Ghouls...
Fortunately Lawful.

btw even at max mana, I can't use up all my 30 overland skill, as I'm only making 25 mana minus the maintenance.
Decide to get Summoning Circle, while losing 40 MP is bad, the Ghouls need to travel for 3-4 fewer turns.
...ehh I messed up, I wasn't researching the circle, but Cloak of Fear. Wasted 40 MP.

Traded Earth Lore for War Bears. Man, if I used those it would be so much more profitable.

1402 March, third ghoul is ready. This must be enough for the place with the fewest Phantom Beasts. Ehh, I think I could have done this with only 2 of them. Can't know in advance how many of each are there and I got only one beast. Reward...a plate mail. Worth 282 mana. Well, that pays for...2 more ghouls, barely. Going after the many skeletons, no undead but maybe some money...

AI offers a wizard's pact. Might as well. Heck we share realms, a nice trading partner! Except she'll probably take out lairs with bears and stuff before I'm ready to strike.
Miliraty nearly identical, might get into a war. Wish I could push up my forces but ghouls with focus magic don't contribute much to it for their cost.

9 Skeletons for 298 gold. Not mana, wish I had picked Alchemy too
Oh well, I need that Sawmill. Also, I almost lost a ghoul. 9 Skeletons are too much for 3 of them, they ran out of ammo and had to melee some. Another is in yellow. These units won't be ready for battle for the next ~10 turns.

1402 October, I have 4 ghouls now, but two are wounded and the new one is far from the stack. My Orc city has rebels - this amazing undead creation tactic failed to provide enough undead to use as garrison. I will need Spearmen
No, my taxes are not maxed, they are two levels lower.

Earth Lore 4
X many Earth Elemental (node). My sprites would love this but my Ghouls are terrified. These things have 30 hit points and immunity to poison. Might be doable by walking in circles after out of ammo and killing one at a time...but that would take forever. I doubt I can do more than one per attack. Oh and definitely not until the ghouls are healed and gathered.
+ Cockatrices, a few Sprites (node). This is doable. But I estimate the needing about 7 ghouls and losing about 2-3. Far away goal.
X Many Ghouls. Nah.
+ Nagas, Phantom Beast (node). Finally a decent target that can get me mana. About time.

Meanwhile, built Forester's Guild and Alchemist Guild for Longbowmen. If I started with this instead of the ghoul tactic, I'd already own two nodes.

My ghouls are still in poor health. They don't do very well on their attack rolls either. 2 Nagas down, but the 1 Phantom Beast survives at yellow and kills 2 of the 3 ghouls. Retreating would mean giving up on the 2 nagas, so I consider risking the melee with the last one - fortunately I realize I can afford a unit of zombies and that takes care of the problem. Total gain : 2 spearmen, 4 swordsmen, 2 nagas...ehhh.I did better with combat summoned zombies against wizards in other games. The node gets me 123 mana and a hero.


...if this wasn't hard difficulty but impossible, I'd be in trouble. 1403 January, 1 node owned, 450 mana/gold total in treasury, 4 cities, out of which 1 is capable of making longbowmen....or will be, in 4 more turns. Still need the Barracks. I probably could have played it slightly better but not significantly - if I prioritized Longbowmen over all else. (all else being converting gold to mana and buying a sawmill. Only one. Out of the 3 cities that needed it.)

I feel picking Skeletons with Archmage for combat cast Darkness could have been a superior strategy. Those cost 25 each so for the price of 2 ghouls I can get 12. Enough to take out most of the targets I did so far and the undead gained were a joke. And what's worse, if I really wanted them using Summon Zombie in combat would have been enough to convert most if not all.

[Seravy]

I gave it some thought and Hydra is probably the only thing that can possibly be worth it for this strategy enough to be significantly powerful. Other creatures are nice but being undead they can't heal and no matter how good they are, will go down in 3-4 battles to random Star Fires, Fire Bolt or other direct damage spells. That's not really something worth the investment of 9*155 = 1395 for the ghoul stack. You can also except massive losses - a melee undead unit is not particularly good (gets used up even faster) and a ranged one will kill a lot of ghouls before it goes down. (Even if it only kills 2 you already lose as much mana as the cost of an Efreet. Sure, you get this Efreet earlier, but it's undead so it won't be durable.)

I can see Chaos Spawn being maybe a relevant target to convert to undead as well (as long as you don't have to use it against ranged enemies or wizards with star fires/fire bolt/etc), but that's about it. Everything else is either too expensive to kill, immune to being raised, or outright too powerful to damage by ghouls - if none of those then too weak to matter and too easy to get otherwise by cheaper methods (want an undead cockatrice? put it to sleep and summon a zombie. Or an unbuffed ghoul will do it too...).

I don't think this is a strategy is overpowered - it requires amazing luck to find a lone Hydra you can convert and anything short of that is...not going to be enough to out this above other strategies.

(No, djinn don't count, that's gambling. If you lose the stack, you lose the entire strategy. And you have a high chance to lose the stack.)

[Seravy]

Sent 9 Ghouls against a node with 1 Storm Giant and "many" Nagas. 6 of the Ghouls had Focus Magic.
It wasn't enough to win. I could retreat with the 3 badly wounded ghouls still alive and not get the Storm Giant...or keep fighting and probably lose them all.
That's it for Ghouls testing, as I researched Shadow Demons meanwhile and have no ghoul army to use anymore.

[Arnuz]

Our results differ greatly. Sure, I can't base myself on ghouls only, but it's a very adaptable basis for all kinds of other things. You just need to keep flexible and adapt on the fly.

- earth lore vs barbarians: I prefer barbarians. Barbarian archers are perfect to clean up nodes for later ghoul work: killing sprite secundaries, killing excessive stuff, etc. Barb spearmen are the perfect scout/pathfinding for your ghouls. 2 Earth lores=1 ghoul.
- focus magic: it's not always necessary! 1 focus magic = 1 ghoul (in terms of strength). Well ok, a bit more considering shields, but it's a good rule of thumb. Having some buffed ghouls and some naked ones lets you have some ghouls that you can sacrifice more easily, giving you options.

- good undead: you seem to limit the choice excessively. I'm happy to find lowly commons, they provide excellent meatshields for free. Anything with regeneration is a fantastic find. Any spellcaster is awesome - it gets all the death spellbook for free, even if I don't have the spells! I'll happily trade a ghoul for a djinn or efreet for example. Spiders give you webs, chaos spawn are super easy and rock, unicorns don't kill a lot of ghouls and rock against wizards, elementals are easy (yes, kill them one by one if you have to), spirits meld, a few chimeras or gargoyles are doable, cockatrices, gorgons, 1 behemoth or hydra. To get a caster you're well off losing a ghoul or two: angels, djinns. I've never lost the entire army against these, never seen magic immunity cast. Looking at the cost it seems they can't cast it at 50? I've not found an efreet yet - do they cast flamestrike? Otherwise, if they kill 1 ghoul that's a pretty great exchange.
- the undead don't heal: that's fine, I normally have trouble for excessive mana upkeep, and have to send them to die anyway.

Gargoyles (can't kill, too high armor, poison immunity)+Fire Elemental.

Go in with archers first, kill the gargos (unless it's many), the ghouls next for the elementals

Gargoyles, many Hell Hounds

same

Many Nagas, Phantom Beast

same, kill the beasts first. One ghoul per naga, no focus magic needed. One ghoul (cost: 80) gives you 1 ghoul+1naga (cost: 100)

+ Neutral High Men 3 pop (anything could take this out. Gained 4 undead swordsmen. Well, ok, that's fine but a Summon Zombie can do this much.)

I'd say 2 or 3 zombies? With the difference that they're gone after the battle...

Sent 9 Ghouls against a node with 1 Storm Giant and "many" Nagas.

again, archers first, kill the giant then run around the nagas. Ghouls next, with any surviving archers.

-Maintenance. Hard to afford. A Ghoul only costs 1 but focus Magic costs 2. That's 3 for each unit. I see a nice convenient "many cockatrices" node nearby, but I'd go bankrupt before I could summon enough buffed ghouls to actually beat it. Alchemy might be able to get around this but then you don't have the gold on buying settlers and stuff. On the other hand, if I produced my usual 9 longbowmen stack, I could do it.
-Risky nodes. I attacked one containing "many nagas" and lost the entire stack to two Air Elementals. Holding back and waiting until a spearmen explores everything or enough Earth Lores are cast is needed. The latter is hard to afford while paying 10-20 mana maintenance on the ghouls each turn and having to still summon more of them meanwhile.
-Resulting undead are...not very valuable. I got some bears (nice but I could have summoned that for 110 mp myself), a sprites (same for 80) and 3 Fire Elementals (which I was happy to have until I realized the nearby neutral city already has an alchemist's guild, making them worthless.). Certainly, some undead Hydras are amazing but for that you need a node to pay for 9 ghouls - and one you can get with fewer than that full 9 ghouls, probably no more than 5-6. At which point it's no different from the Sprites strategy - you need to first boot up the power production by finding an easy node, then you can afford going after the larger ones. No easy node nearby = failure. Problem is, for Ghouls, a lot of stuff is hard that would b easy for Sprites. Ghouls don't fly - once the 4 shots are out, they just get killed. So you can't beat 6+ Nagas with 2 ghouls - you can with sprites.
-Requires a steep investment in picks - 2 Sorcery, 2 Death, Spellweaver (you really can't afford casting 155 mana units are 18-20/turn) are essential which already costs 6 compared to the 2 of Sprites (Sprites cost 80/unit, you don't need Spellweaver. It helps but you don't need it.). Earth Lore makes things even worse - without you either have to rely on spearmen (your race needs to be barbarian otherwise they'll be really slow scouts) or take massive risks. But to pick it, you need to spend another 2 picks, pushing up the total to 8 out of 12 - while when playing Sprites it only costs 1 as you already have Nature.
-Darkness would be useful but the starting casting skill is not enough to use it immediately and with all the maintenance cost, I can't raise it quickly. Archmage instead of Spellweaver can help here but then summoning is slower

* Spell focus is not a necessity, it's a power up. Many cockatrices -> archers first, halve them, then flee -> ghouls next.
* Risk: no, there's no risk. Just  go with archers and spearmen first. If you play with this in mind it's not an issue, spearmen and archers move at 3/pathfinding.
* Value: sometimes you end up with worthless stuff, but that's still good fortress lightning meatshields that lets you kill the AI's spellcasters or ranged units before the real attack.
* Picks: sort of true, still, leaves you plenty of choice. I like SS (sf) DD (ghouls) NN (web) L C alchemy omniscient (bonuses to get the archers asap), rest is taste. Could probably drop some books too.
* Darkness: usually you'll find some spellcaster, either a prisoner or an undead unit. I've ended up with someone casting black prayer (either witch or djinn) before I could have myself even with the books in 2 out of 3 games so far.

* Difficulty: on this I agree, it's a difficult strategy that needs player skill and knowledge. If you think that this balances it then I've got nothing to add. However, it was possible in MoM as well, where you had to summon zombies or ghouls AND do it hand to hand. I think that gave the player an even bigger satisfaction.

I'm doing another test game, I'll post the results soon. I also had really bad lairs close to my start, but still eventually found some good ones around the first encountered wizard's capital which basically let me double my cities. It was mostly just elementals, nagas bears and hell hounds, plus 3 unicorns - sending in 2 waves of assorted crap followed by the ghouls was more than enough. When you get 2 bonus stacks (plus the ghouls) so early in the game you are bound to defeat one AI or almost. So yeah I agree, it's similar to sprites and cavalry starts, plus with bonus troops where and when they matter. Reaching a neighbour's lairs/nodes before her basically ensures that you get her capital. Then, the game is hardly still impossible... Well, actually then the game is won then. Still a bet, I agree, but one that hands you an impossible game.

[Seravy]

Behemoth? Those have 15 shields, 20 if they put Iron Skin on themselves. Ghouls can't damage them even with Focus Magic on.

Gargoyles, simple archers won't kill them, I need at least several with a barracks and magical weapons. At that point I don't need ghouls anymore to win the fight.

"One ghoul per naga, "
That's what made me lose my entire stack. I thought 9 ghouls can deal with 1 giant and 8 nagas, but it couldn't (6 ghouls were buffed), the nagas ate the ghouls as they ran out of ammo.

Zombies, one can kill two or three swordsmen. If you can afford Cloak of Fear on them then even 9.

"again, archers first, kill the giant then run around the nagas."
The point of the strategy is to make undead from good units. If I don't get the Storm Giant, there is no point by then. Nagas are kinda obsolete at that point.


Meanwhile I won the game - Shadow Demons obliterated the entire map effortlessly. I didn't get undead but nothing could stop me anyway so I didn't need them. The problem with Ghouls this game was, by the time I found places where I could have gotten some good undead creature, I no longer needed any.

I admit, the 9 undead sprites I got from an AI wizard's capital were nice, but that was the only useful thing I got this game.

[Arnuz]

Game report

Impossible, Fair land, Good power, Fair minerals & climate (tried to be as average and representative as possible)

Barbarian alchemy, Omni, Archmage, 3D (ghouls, life drain) 2N (web) 2S (FM) C L (I decided that conjurer isn't worth it for the ghouls, the limiting factor's been skill usually)

Starting position is above average I'd say, coal and some rivers, but not so fantastic as to drop the game to get a more representative one I think:


By turn 24 I've explored around a bit, captured 2 neutral cities (klakon, human) getting the very important free undead garrison that lets me keep high taxes and found a couple ghoul-friendly nodes: one with 3 chaos spawn (I've been whittling it down with the archers, it's now at 1) and one with 5 spiders and 2 war bears... Yep, it's not ghoul friendly, but it IS chaos spawn friendly B)


The chaos node close to the capital has 3 hydras, the sorc one has beasts and 3 air elementals. It seems I'm quite on my own, I start building some settlers...

[Arnuz]

... And immediately a lizardmen settler pops up lol, goddamn. I am so pissed off that I just raze the outpost. The neighbour is a lawful expansionist nat/life alchemy tactician merlin, not too dangerous for now but could become a major pain. After some minor skirmish this is the situation:



I've grabbed another chaos spawn in a minor lair... And there are more in the south-east one! Woot! That should be enough to deal with the neighbour, but he must have been settling like crazy - his capital is still a hamlet, the top east city here. I've also conquered another minor city from him.

I find another neighbour, mostly D/4N/1S specialist, lawful theurgist - I immediately start trading spells, hoping for peace. The army stands at 3 SF ghouls+3 ghouls, some archers, 2 chaos spawn 4 nagas and 1 fire giant that halved one of the SF ghouls ^^' (who now counts as an unbuffed ghoul)

[Arnuz]