Artificier strategy

[Seravy]

A good strategy could be to start as normal with sprites or whatever to clear nodes and then transition to using heroes when you get a couple of good ones. By then you will probably have a armour piercing weapon and some other nice items from nodes.

Agreed but then there are not enough picks to have the item powers the strategy is based around.
Which is why I think Life and Sorcery item powers need too many books.

[Nelphine]

2 things:

Level 1 wind mage is already better than a level 10 any-other-hero-including-torin. And a level 10 wind mage is better than a level 1, but not by much.

I've used the healer (on lunatic!) to wipe out every city on myrror (except the capital) before 1406.

She had heroism, but ended around level 7 or 8.


Heroes (NOT hero strategies) are currently overpowered. Artificer and famous both do virtually nothing to help use heroes. But, to have the best heroes, you can't plan on them - you don't know when you'll find the right item you need.

[MrBiscuits]

I've used the healer (on lunatic!) to wipe out every city on myrror (except the capital) before 1406.

I'd quite like to see a game of you achieving this as I've never had anywhere near that amount of luck with heroes early on. Sprites, ghouls, cavalry will all take out Serena at low levels.

Also by the time I've got to enemy cities they have at least Halberdiers in them unless you start on the same continent or are nearby and you have water walking/wraith form.

[Seravy]

Okay, some brainstorming.

You have 10 picks to spend.

For this strategy to function, you want :

1. A way to make sure your heroes to be durable enough to survive consistently
A.Regeneration
B.Divine Protection + Invulnerability, enough life magic to heal and resurrect.

2. Protection from Crack's Call
A.Merging
B.Wraith Form
C.Lionheart

3. Ability to clear nodes
A.Invisibility
B.Merging+Elemental Armor

4. Something for the early game
A.2 Nature books
B.2 Death books

If we do 1A, 2A then we are good to go as it implies 3B and 4B. So mono-nature artificier works, as is, no changes necessary. The weak point is resistance (no Lionheart), but 2 Sorcery or hiring Charmed heroes can do that.

For 1A and 2B to work together, we still need 3B which puts us back to the previous strategy. In other words, death books are not viable for the Nature strategy - Adding Nature books for Merging costs fewer picks and is superior to Wraithform.

for 1A+2C to be a strategy, Lionheart has to be cheap enough to not result in a large number of Life books which would put us into the 1B strategy anyway. It also needs 3B included.
This means cost of Lionheart+Merging+Elemental Armor+Regeneration<=10 but Lionheart<=Invulnerability and Divine Protection.
We could consider playing 3A but with Regeneration already included, the cost of Merging is more affordable than adding Sorcery books for Invisibility.


1B+2A, for this to be playable, Merging+Elemental Armor+Divine Protection+Invulnerability<=10, fortunately we have Nature so 4A is covered.

1B+2B, comes with neither 3A or 3B. 3B is not an option - it includes Merging which makes Wraithform unnecessary. So 1B+2B+3A, means, Wraith Form+Divine Protection+Invulnerability+Invisibility<=10, again, 4 is covered by 4B, assuming Wraith Form costs at least 2 books. However, Lionheart<=Invulnerability and Divine Protection which makes Wraith Form somewhat unnecessary - but it is better (full immunity instead of being able to survive one CC) so that and 4B means this is still a good choice.

1B+2C, assuming we don't want to do merging (which puts us at 1B+2A instead), we need 3A. This doesn't cover 4A or 4B so we need 2 picks for that.
Meaning Divine Protection+Invulnerability+Lionheart+Invisibility<=8


Assuming we don't want to lower costs more than absolutely needed, these are the only possible options :
Lionheart 3
Invisibility 4
Divine Protection 4
Invulnerability 4
Wraith Form 2

Merging, Elemental Armor, and Regeneration can be anywhere up to 6 so the current
Elemental Armor 3
Regeneration 4
Merging 5
is acceptable. It even leaves 1 free pick for retorts if nature builds are used.
Swapping Merging to 4 and Regeneration to 5 could however allow playing Merging against CC and nodes without having to play Regeneration as well.
So best option is
Regeneration 5
Merging 4


This leaves out the following (more interesting) abilities : Haste, Phantasmal, Teleportation, Flight, Resist Magic

Flight is good at the current 3 - it makes it one step below Invisibility which is roughly what it is - less effective protection from being attacked.
Resist Magic at 3, idk - probably good but it means Sorcery has nothing at 2 books. It is very powerful though, granting as much unremovable resistance as 2-3 other items together.
Teleportation probably should be 5 - to stay 1 more expensive than Merging.
Haste and Phantasmal I'm unsure about - keeping them at 4 and 5 might be best but that does mean you have 1 fewer leftover pick to improve your early game - probably a fair trade for that much better late game.
Planar Travel opens early cheap Myrran access - I think this should cost a bit extra to unlock, so at 5?

Summary - I believe these should be the new book costs :
Lionheart 3
Invisibility 4
Divine Protection 4
Invulnerability 4
Wraith Form 2
Regeneration 5
Merging 4
Elemental Armor 3
Teleportation 5
Phantasmal 5
Haste 4
Resist Magic 3?
Flight 3
Planar Travel 5?
Exorcise 2
Shadow 4
others unchanged.

[Nelphine]

Get Serena in lair (I've literally had a hero on turn 2). Get planar travel item. Get +6-8 armor chest. Cast Holy Armor and Endurance. Get some other item with +armor. Now Serena is up above 20 defence, with +1 to defend. It works with literally any hero - if you get a good melee hero, it actually works much better.

And you can do all of that with found items. That much defense, nothing the AI has except the fortress lightning can hurt them. It helps that I play life, so the hero can cast healing on themself when they occassionally take a few points of damage.

Just roam around razing cities - the enemy can't cross to your plane that early, nothing they have can hurt the hero (and even if they did, a single hero's army strength is so low that its very rare the ai will attack with more than 3-6 units at a time.)

The best way to get heroes is to find them, not to hire them or summon them. The best way to get items is to find them. The best hero strategy is therefore ... clearing lairs and nodes.

Which means any changes you make, need to take that into account. It's lots of fun to plan around playing heroes, but it isn't the best way.

Changing costs: I have no idea why merging is worse than teleportation. They should both require 4 books. (High movement is just as good, and doesn't have a book requirement, and affects overland speed.)

I'd leave haste at 5 - it's just that good. I'd drop planar travel to 3. It's nice, but there's lots of other ways to cross the planes, so I don't think there's any good reason to make it that rare. I'd probably leave elemental armor at 4 - it's just.. really really strong when it does work, and it builds on what makes heroes so overpowered anyway.

[Seravy]

I have no idea why merging is worse than teleportation.

Teleportation grants +1 To Def and movement. No immunity to crack's call though.

I'd leave haste at 5 - it's just that good.

So Haste at 5 and Phantasmal at 4 instead?
I do believe Phantasmal might be better - unlike Haste which doesn't work with First Strike, this does. Ofc Haste adds movement which is amazing so you have a point.
I definitely do not want everything to cost 5 though. Also haste and teleportation at the same cost is kinda redundant - both grant combat mobility but haste is more offensive while teleportation is more defensive. Defense is, as you say, better.

I'd drop planar travel to 3. It's nice, but there's lots of other ways to cross the planes, so I don't think there's any good reason to make it that rare.

At only 3 books you have a poor chance to actually get the planar/astral spell, but you are guaranteed enchant item and this. So I'd want it at a high enough books where you'd get the spell anyway. The item ability is an improvement over them - it can be created without researching an uncommon.
...then again, with no heroes until turn 30, I guess I'm worried over nothing. A planar travel item in the vault ain't gonna do anything for you. Might as well cost 3.

I see why Elemental Armor could be 4 books but Nature doesn't have anything else useful at 2 or 3 books.

[Arnuz]

1. A way to make sure your heroes to be durable enough to survive consistently
A.Regeneration
B.Divine Protection + Invulnerability, enough life magic to heal and resurrect.

2. Protection from Crack's Call
A.Merging
B.Wraith Form
C.Lionheart

3. Ability to clear nodes
A.Invisibility
B.Merging+Elemental Armor

How does lionheart protect from cracks? Did you mean flight?

I think you're overvaluing regeneration. It still needs you to win the fight to work, as the attacker, which makes this not anymore a "do most of the work with the hero" strategy.

On the contrary, invisibility and merging seem over-the-top for clearing nodes, without the AI casting spells you don't need that much.

Why is it necessary to wait to get a hero? Why couldn't a retort give it from day 1?

Because it wins the game effortlessly. If you hire a good hero on turn 5, you can use it to take out any wizard you encounter - they do not yet have enough casting skill or powerful troops to do anything about it. Unless the AI can at least cast 2-3 times a battle, it won't be able to hurt a hero using spells, and nothing you can produce that early hurts a 10+ shield hero.

Even on Lunatic it takes the AI at least 50-80 turns to be able to deal with a hero - either by researching an uncommon direct damage spell, or hiring their own or producing high end troops like stag beetles that can potentially deal damage to it.
In that much time, your hero can conquer half the world, not to mention find enough equipment that it remains invincible even if the AI does get something.

I disgree with this. Heroes at the beginning are only as good as the items they're equipped with, if you get one you don't automatically get items. Even spellcasters are only as good as the spells they know, and at the beginning that's not much - even the guy who knows flamestrike can't cast it for the next few levels, barring the use of (a problem on its own) focus magic.

and be forced to lose a high level thief who's been growing for the whole game and managed to survive countless battles because there's no further development,

A high level thief is powerful enough to keep around - but this might not apply to every hero. I wouldn't hesitate to replace my druid for example. But this is a choice the player has to make and I think it keeps the game more interesting.

Then you need to level the hero up though. I didn't mean that the problem is losing the hero, but repeating all the work to level him up. Is the idea to make all heroes equally viable too much work? It would differentiate CoM from MoM greatly.

Seeing these two answers I get a doubt. Could it be that some spells are just overpowered when applied to heroes? I'm referring to focus magic and heroism, could it be that the solution to the hero at day 1/overpoweredness issue is to change some spells to not apply to heroes?

[Arnuz]

Level 1 wind mage is already better than a level 10 any-other-hero-including-torin. And a level 10 wind mage is better than a level 1, but not by much.

Agreed. Wind mage would be quite another story if it received say, divine barrier at lvl 2, focus at 4, and windwalk at 6.

[Seravy]

How does lionheart protect from cracks? Did you mean flight?

Crack's does 21 damage. A hero with Lionheart will usually have more health than that, so it takes 2 hits to kill it. You can then use exaltation to refill the health of the hero...or finish the battle before the AI gets lucky again, it is, afterall only 25% chance to work.

Flight doesn't work - Nature wizards will web the hero first.

I think you're overvaluing regeneration. It still needs you to win the fight to work, as the attacker, which makes this not anymore a "do most of the work with the hero" strategy.

If you have 2-3 very powerful heroes in the same stack, you will win all battles, even if one hero is killed. Losing all of them will be very unlikely (unless you make a mistake like attack 9 colossus with them).

I disgree with this. Heroes at the beginning are only as good as the items they're equipped with, if you get one you don't automatically get items.

Not true. There was a thread about the early hero problem when we limited them to 30 turns, find it. Somewhere around this year's March-April maybe? You can easily have 12-15 shields with +1 or 2 To Def without any items and that is enough for an "invincible" hero for the early game. It will be fighting swordsmen, bears and halberdiers afterall.

Spellcasters are a different story - but you can have a spellcaster with that much defense and use it as a melee hero. Holy Armor, Tactician, Lucky, Endurance, Heroism are not limited to melee heroes - if you don't have items yet, having no armor slot makes no difference.

If you use the spellcaster hero for ranged attacks, it is invincible as is : all you need to do is make sure enemy troops don't corner it, and cast healing if the AI targets it with a common direct damage spell.
I guess this is less trivial now that they move 3 but it can still work if you avoid fast or numerous enemy units (or if you find or make a move +1 item).

Is the idea to make all heroes equally viable too much work?

Your system would only work if leveling up could allow the hero to learn new abilities from a skilltree unique to that hero. That isn't something I can do.
Also, I'm quite happy with the current system.

I'm referring to focus magic and heroism, could it be that the solution to the hero at day 1/overpoweredness issue is to change some spells to not apply to heroes?

This was also discussed at the thread mentioned (or elsewhere, not sure).

[Nelphine]

Getting items for heroes is much easier than making them (and when lucky, can be quite early - that luck factor is why I say, heroes are overpowered, but a hero strategy is not). Tossing on common buffs (life specifically due to increased defense) can easily make them invincible, even before turn 30.

Heroism and focus magic I do think are still problematical. However I didn't convince Seravy then, and I have nothing new to add on that topic, and I don't have a problem with regards to the topic of this thread (they aren't what make heroes overpowered when killing things, stacking 47 different sources of armor and to defend is.) And I'm OK with not convincing Seravy, as per that previous discussion.