RB Pitboss #3 [SPOILERS]- Suryavarman II of England

[Cyneheard]

I told Krill about HRE's COL research, and then asked for Alpha, since Mali needs Archery.

Short-sighted is what it is. I want to see if a late-T74 Alpha will work; that gets it to Mali ASAP, but France won't be able to do much about it.

Sorry, I didn;t gift you alphabet, I don;t want to alarm France, they are starting to get pretty god damn antsy.

Also, sorry for brevity, don;t have much time, dealing with fail out in rbpb2.

I'm sorry, but I think 'm going to have to not trade you Alphabet until t75. Hate me, blame me infront of Mali, I'm ok with that, but need to keep france from getting any understanding of what is happening over there.

My response to Mali, including the forwarded message:

I feel really bad about this. Krill's screwing us and you over by
playing it this way. I hope the Aztec gain contact with you shortly.
Ruff has a unit heading in your direction, but I haven't a clue where
it is. Krill's making the wrong decision, but I don't know how to talk
him into changing his mind. France is going to go ballistic in a few
turns anyway.

[Cyneheard]

T72:

Scouting Update:
The Unready One, near French territory. Going to start sending him north, to scout around.



Richard, near Krill's lands. Heading NW to try and find something useful, like Ruff.


Conan:


We got HBR, passed Archery around to everyone who had asked. I whipped London for 2 pop on the worker; it'll regrow to size 4 next turn, and I think finish that worker next turn.

I think the charade is going to be up. Morgan's warrior is going the wrong way. He's going to see us, and then wonder why we disappear. I hope he moves W. We'll need to move after Morgan on T73. T74, we need to move early, so that on T75 we can hit them.



Cities:
London's whip, as mentioned. We'll probably have to work 2 GHMs next turn to finish the worker, instead of a cottage or 2, which is fine.


Animal Farm:
Next turn, we switch to the stable, and grow some food to hit size 5 for the double-whip. I've switched us from the 2 cottages to the wheat + scientist. Let's get some GPP going while we can; it's 3 research instead of 4 commerce, but we pick up a hammer and 3 GPP. A good trade IMO.



BR: Next turn, size 5 for the double-whip of the barracks.


Demogs: We've whipped 2 of our pop away, and we're STILL #1 in pop. Next turn, we'll go from 3-5-4 to 4-5-3, and then 4-4-3. 120 hammers in whips, and basically flat in population. This cost us our #1s in MFG and Food, but whatever.

[Cyneheard]

My plan on clock management:
It's still T72. We might be reloading (looks like back to T71...that's going to be painful. At least we've got full screenshots on where everyone needs to be at the end of T72)
T73: Hold the clock. After everyone else has gone, or 1 hour left on the timer, log in and play the turn. Hit Enter, or wait for the clock to roll.
T74: Make our military moves within the 1st five minutes of the turn roll. Finish everything else then, as well. Don't hit enter.
T75: Again, after waiting for the clock to roll down, or everyone else ending turn, we go in, hit enter, declare war.

An interesting e-mail from the Maya:

I sent a greetings message when our civs officially met in-game, but I'm not sure if you saw it (or felt like responding - I admit it was a pretty silly message). In any case, there's now stuff to actually talk about, in spite of our being on opposite sides of the world, so here goes:

So, you may have noticed that we made peace with India. We're actually on pretty good terms with them for a couple of civs who've been at war almost since meeting. Thanks in part to their new land acquisitions in Sumeria, we're also teching a lot better than them though, so we've worked out a deal whereby we'll take over researching Metal Casting to get the ETA down to something you'll probably find a lot more attractive, while they work on an alternative (most likely in the direction of Aesthetics+Lit). We'll of course want to make the same kinds of deals with you that you've got with them - trading the fruits of our research for yours and establishing a NAP (including forbidding us to attack each other at second hand via gifted units, etc.)

That's the general outline. We can talk specifics when we both have time (it's after 1AM for me right now) either by e-mail or via google chat. If you're interested in setting up other deals and plans as well, let us know; we're always open to creative suggestions.

-Ref Eriksson for the Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

Well, I didn't think that the Maya were going to end up on board (fine with me, they're not a killable civ for any of CAN in the near term anyway).
I see no reason not to offer Monarchy for Metal Casting, and Archery now if they want it; Fishing's of course an easy gift, as well. An ETA of Metal Casting would be nice; this will be an in-writing deal for Monarchy for Metal Casting.

Usual NAP proposal? Cancellable at T100, 10t cooldown, no ROP or 3rd-party-gifting of units, 43EP limit, etc. etc.?

Except for possibly the Aztec (who look to be pure funders; Ruff's still recovering from the Incan war), I'd like some form of a direct agreement for "We'll give you Monarchy when available, and in return you'll give us X" from every team that hasn't given us a real tech yet (so, India (Aesthetics/Lit?), Maya (MC), Portugal? (Sailing was nice. Not sure what they're going for.), Babylon (Currency), Mali (Calendar?)). Babylon and Mali, I see no reason to bring it up; they'll give us their tech when they've got it. But the other three?
CAN isn't stable. And there's a good chance that when this splits, India, Portugal and Maya will end up on the other side of the split. Those three civs will stick together. We really need Krill and India to end up on opposite sides; if that's the case, and Mali and Babylon are willing to work with Krill, then we've got a set block of 5 civs, against 6 (Ottomans, HRE, Aztec, as well). Inca and Byzantium would also still be alive, although I doubt the Inca will be for very long. Byzantium? Who knows. We won't have the military to assist a Babylonian strike, assuming that's what they do, not with our anti-France force doing its job.

[Cyneheard]

Talking to Krill about the future. CAN has a very short life expectancy: HRE is (probably) going for COL. Krill is going for COL, and is going to beat him there. So, the trick is making sure that we're in good shape after a split.

He wants to get Babylon/Mali/Maya/Carthage/us/him. I think that's a good split, although it would be nice if we could get 7. There will be 14 civs alive (unless France really has a rabbit in their hat), but Rome and Portugal are not going to team up, and the Inca are rather irrelevant, as well.

I think Maya are the wild card, though: Can we convince them to stay on our side? We'll have most of their neighbors, and better techs (Construction, COL sooner, Currency, and Philo for kicks and giggles).

me: good news: Mali met Aztec so no worries about Archery
Krill: Awesome. Sorry about that but really At least it sounds plausible
me: I understand, I just didn't want to hurt Mali
Krill: yeah. Glad you did it that way
me: So, the Maya seem to be getting brought in, as well?
Krill: Well, I look at it slightly differently. They are researching a good tech that everyone needs
me: true
Krill: India changed simply because they thought they couldn't compete with them. I had nothing to do with that
me: not surprising
Krill: Then consider HRE going for CoL and I'm pretty sure I'll beat them
me: that's...going to annoy them
Krill: because they need insanely high GNP for a non FIN civ yeah
me: no one else has a GNP over 53
Krill: yeah and pretty sure that is Carthage
me: well, we're the 56 so, not likely that HRE can keep up
Krill: I'm wondering how one would announce that they are leaving the CAN?
me: not sure.
Krill: Hmm, something to ponder btw, I was looking at the gold costs for several civs, ie what they owed. it isn't pretty
me: Aztecs owe a ton. we'll cover our debt when Monarchy comes in
Krill: like, Portugal is down several hundred beakers in total as well
me: we gave ~4-5 civs Archery
Krill: yeah yup. you were one of the decently good civs, slightly over the top, but not giving out loads.
me: Fishing was a "whatever, if you want it". did you mark that we gave HRE Pottery?
Krill: HRe could have gotten pottery from Ottomans the same turn
me: yeah
Krill: most of the ancient era tech is junk
me: right
Krill: I looked at the numbers, and I can't figure out a way of splitting the differences fairly
me: so there isn't
Krill: Portugal aren't ever going to pay each team they owe 50 gold etc
me: is Portugal going to research a tech?
Krill: Doubt it. Right now it looks like they are going to be busy pegging Rome back, settling their iron...
me: dealing with a whipped spear or two...
Krill: well... they asked for some advice. I told them to not bother attacking, but settle Romans iron if it is near Portugal, which basically nullifies Rome as a threat
me: just a little
Krill: Bah. I don't know what to do! It sucks
me: try to engineer a favorable CAN split
Krill: Egypt/England/Carthage/Maya/Mali/Babylon. that work?
me: that works for me. let me talk to ASM
Krill: CoL/Theo/Monarchy/Construction/MC/Calendar/Currency, and the others aren't researching anything
me: well, we probably still owe Monarchy to some people. at least Ottomans and HRE
Krill: yeah
me: since we've gotten IW and HBR from them. Philo can still get lightbulbed, probably around T93
Krill: ok. Something to consider
me: If this is what happens, then Rome and Inca are probably getting nothing
ever
Krill: yeah
me: fine with me
Krill: what a way to screw over 2 teams... Also...
me: well, Portugal will keep Rome from joining their group
Krill: France has to come to me for Alphabet
me: hehe. however, if everyone else has Alpha then they can trade
Krill: Yeah. Still need to get it to get PP though, So have to waste 540 beakers at some point
me: you think they'll last that long?
Krill: no. Hopefully they don't last until t90. Think we need to get the ball rolling on that little group?
me: yes
Krill: Because if we do, I think we need to allow for mali/Babylon/maya getting IW/HBR from somewhere [OOC: One option for HBR is Babylon; they're close to done with it]
me: we have until COL comes in
Krill: arguably I could hold off bulbing
me: if you knew when HRE was coming due
Krill: yeah. I could deficit spend on the espionage slider.
me: that won't be suspicious.
Krill: yeah and a waste. not something I really want to do
me: so, that would put us in a 6v6, leaving them Byz, India, Portugal, Ottomans, HRE, Aztec
Krill: So...1 Fin civ
me: who might get involved in a war
Krill: what do you mean, might?
me: Babylon?
Krill: I'm already setting that up now...
me: Byz
Krill: babylon v Byz. well, I'm not setting it up, that is what babylon want to do anyway
me: well, 2 Fin civs. Portugal, Willem
Krill: I'm just trying to slant it in their favour. ah yeah
me: they'll be slow to build research, but Fin/Cre, it won't take much
Krill: yeah
me: a few cottages and libraries
Krill: depends. with maintenance the way it is...
me: how expensive do you think city #6 will be, pre-courthouses?
Krill: even increasing in population ups the costs. um: splat
. really not good
me: 10-12gpt?
Krill: I don't think developed economies can support a sixth city and Portugal has naff all cottages
me: I'm also thinking about our development. we'll get our fifth soonish, by T90
Krill: yeah, but you'll also have cottages, right?
me: aye. by that point? 6. or more.
Krill: which is solid
me: depends on how many mines we work, although these river grass mines have been great for our economy
Krill: those are nice tiles...
me: we're probably going to have to hold both T73 and T74. T73 because we need to slip past the French warrior and T74 so we can control the war declaration on T75
Krill: don't forget to move first on t74 then.
me: we'd end T73 and play T74 right there, just not hit end turn until everyone else has
Krill: cool. ok. Babylon want Byz gone long term it seems. Could be lying, but I kinda doubt it
me: same here, they want that land
me: Does Carthage have any units near your territory? Trying to accelerate Babylonian contact
Krill: Carthage has a single warrior next to my capital. no babylon unit nearby
me: they have a woody II
Krill: it is looking for france
me: query: Do you want Portugal to just settle Rome's iron, or have them get involved in a knock-down long brawl in trying to kill them?
Krill: hmmm. I've being giving Portugal tactical advice on how to deal with preats and how to win that war, not on how to deal with Rome politically
me: just encourage them to fight... that's probably a good thing. Portugal is the WORST civ economically to fight a big war
Krill: I didn't really encourage him. I just enabled
me: close enough
Krill: true
me: although I will say, Exp is the trait for mounted combat
Krill: Why would you say that?
me: faster development, where speed is all that matters
Krill: fair point
me: Agg saves you 25H if you want a barracks
Krill: Personally, I prefer Chm for later era mounted combat.
me: later era, yeah
Krill: triple promo mounted units are nice
me: but for chariots and HAs
Krill: yeah. That is the reason Exp is must preferred in MP. sheer speed is important
me: Heck, on Noble, I might take Joao over Pacal
Krill: (RBPB1)
me: yeah.
me: Ruff's only hope is to spread Buddhism like mad
Krill: yes
me: our plans do make that easier
Krill: I'm trying to get a deal in place for the Indian GP.. so that he can't shrine it. I've been trying to do that for a long time... but they seem to want to settle it...which isn;t a bad option either.
me: if they settle it that's fine
Krill: yeah
me: I think if Lyons is size 2 we'll give it to HRE for a NAP and settlement considerations; if they don't give us what we want, we'll burn Lyons down. 2 coppers for them isn't great but not a big deal
Krill: That sounds like a solid plan IMO
me: we've told them if we have to fight a spear, we'll probably have to burn it because we can't hold it. also gets us a NAP before alliance switches. Hm. That's the second time I've done that.
Krill: It's called foresight, it isn't a bad thing provided you are willing to defend an ally from their aggression
me: well, there's no anti-gifting clause
me: Forbidding ROP, yes. I don't know if HRE would have a chance to hit Carthage. who do you have graphs of? We'll finish Byzantium soon
Krill: india, portugal, hre, otto, myself
me: we've had Mali and Babylon. first contact was late for us, T44
Random question: whose idea was it to bring us into CAN? HRE?
Krill: long story: India wanted at least 9 teams, HRe met you, you joined
me: it was a better deal. Is any wonder but the Oracle truly a team-wonder in a tech trading PB game? Manhattan's game-wide.
Krill: Not really, unless someone really abused the SoZ and vassal states or SoZ and city gifting
me: since both of those tricks are likely to be banned in the event of a PB4
Krill: creating a ring of cities all around the alliance for the SoZ holder
me: it's still just Oracle
Krill: Yup. oh: Hagia Sophia is a tema wonder
me: ah, right
Krill: if everyone gifts workers to the holder. It is probably the most interesting wonder to use.
me: PBEM1 had Ruff use it
Krill: yeah
me: for him and Dreylin, fast workers with 1t roads... India might become really scary with that wonder
Krill: need serfdom and HS to get real use out of it though so I'm not sure
me: at normal speed
Krill: they arent spi in rbpb3, so it is hard to use that civic
me: are you surprised no one else wanted Spi?
Krill: Not really. big name players say spi is much weaker due to golden ages ergo it must be wrong and a naff trait
me: spybonking would make Spi rather needed
Krill: yup. as it is, I have already saved 60 hammers for monuments, and 3 turns from anarchy and that is in 70 turns, it will massively increase once I start getting more civics to use but I think most people don't think about how to maximize the traits
me: well, the 60 hammers are from picking up religions
Krill: yup
me: well, you wouldn't have flipped religions like that
Krill: yeah
me: I think we'll double-revolt HR and OR, but we might wait until we need the HR happy, which, wait, never mind that would be right away
Krill: cool. btw, don't gift me monarchy. I can't accept it until after I bulb CoL
me: ah, right. otherwise you'll get Theo
Krill: nah, DR
me: even worse
Krill: I'll get Theo before you get Monarchy
me: Unit costs are going to slow Monarchy a bit. hopefully T81
Krill: ok
me: is our warrior near your territory going to find anything useful? we only need Aztec and Rome contact and Aztec just met Mali so we might do that near our territory
Krill: doubt it. Korea was to my north
me: right, Portugal sent out their version of who's where and i assumed it got their row right
Krill: yeah
me: slightly off in our neck of the woods since the row below us are about 1/2 a team-length west of where they thought they were
Krill: interesting
me: well, Byzantium's westernmost city is 1st ring to them, I think, and it's parallel or east of Paris by ~1 tile
Krill: ok, thank you for that heads up I think I know where I'm going now with my WC
me: oh?
Krill: praying for some free workers. I know where the byz capital is so have a vague idea
me: I'd have to double-check
Krill: of how far west france is
me: one second, let me see if I can get some coords
Krill: thanks mate
me: have you found Orleans?
Krill: no. not found a single french city, or even their border
me: Actually, Byz' westernmost is 7E of Paris got off by a city-length
Krill: jesus wept. that is a lot of land that i need to cover. hmmm
me: Lancre is 29E of Paris. Orleans has to be east of Paris. it isn't south or we'd have seen it
Krill: ok. so I'm thinking I'm not going to reach France by t75, but I might reach them a turn or two after
me: that's fine. Morgan might ragequit. at least, that seems to be the impression HRE and us got from his Portugal chat
Krill: yeah
me: Poor yaz. 2 doomed civs. heh, Byzantium's healing on our borders and they've got a barb warrior right next to them, but 1.7 @ Woody I on a forest
Krill: hmm. that should be entertaining. I have a French warrior on flatland next to 2 barb warriors, all of them at full health. only advantage is France has a river defence bonus
me: well, that's a dead French warrior. this ruleset makes poaching workers very difficult
Krill: yeah
me: because of the "turn before" bit
Krill: so long as they are not on the borders... yeah. need to be a slimy bastard
me: note to self: When the game is paused, don't randomly open a diplo window
Krill: yeah, I always make that mistake. want me to log in and unpause for you?
me: that won't help. I clicked on you
Krill: lol
me: Byzantium's checking to see if they can fix it. solved. how many WCs do you have at the borders?
Krill: 1... gave away my horse to portugal to go hit Rome with
me: well, Orleans might only have 1 warrior if you can find it
Krill: at the very least, it'll stop him from chopping
me: right. I don't think Orleans has grown, or if it has, it's at most size 2. every score increase that wasn't a tech. looks like it's land points they built Orleans T49. Paris is definitely size 5
Krill: cool
me: I don't know how
Krill: and no slavery.
me: Orleans can be so small
Krill: no food?#
me: even a grass tile would've had them grow on T60
Krill: when did they grow? and worker first?
me: their last pop point, was T53, except for the founding of Lyons. oh, size 2 for Orleans. T64
Krill: chopped worker
me: and then slow growth
Krill: yeah
me: London will have built 6 of our 7 workers. why make the new cities spend spare hammers on them?
Krill: (Actually, that is the best way to do it, and why chopping 2 workers before a settler is usually the best course of action)
me: worker-warrior (hitting size 3)-worker-settler worked great with our land
Krill: growth depends on food really.Anyway, need to shoot for a bit.

[antisocialmunky]

Note: Rename York to Gibralter.

[Cyneheard]

LONG chat with the Maya. I'm going to edit it down, removing a lot of the random stuff (like chatting about MOO). It...uh...is the longest one in the records by a good 400 lines.

So, this was RefSteel (Ref Eriksson) that we were talking to.

Monarchy + Archery for MC. Archery when they want it, Monarchy and MC when available.
NAP proposal, T100 earliest the NAP can be cancelled, autorenewing, 10t cooldown, usual clauses. They'll send an email in the next 24h detailing that.

They want to stick to close to Babylon. This is perfect. Let me explain why I think so.

ASM and Hap, please let me know what you think:
First: CAN is doomed to split. Krill's ensuring that it's going to happen by stealing COL under HRE's nose.
Second: 12 relevant teams. France, Rome, Inca are irrelevant, and might not be around.
Third: So, 6v6 or 7v5. If we get a good 6, then tech-wise we'll dominate, and militarily hopefully do at least OK; there will be probably be some wars somewhere.
So, here's the proposed split, that shouldn't be difficult to arrange:
Krill/Carthage/England
Babylon/Mali/Maya
Picking up a 7th civ might be difficult, it might not be. Byzantium? Ottomans? India/Aztec/Portugal look to be a solidly locked group. HRE probably won't flip, either. I don't know what to expect from the Ottomans.
This also has the added bonus of leaving 4 civs (not Krill/Carthage) who are very likely to stick together. So if CAN2 splits, we'll be on the larger side and better able to manage the split. At some point, I don't think Krill can be allowed to survive forever. NEVER MENTION THIS TO CARTHAGE!

me: Good evening.
Friendly: Evening. (Is it evening where you are, actually?)
me: yes, it is. East Coast, but I'm an insomniac
Friendly: (7:15 PM here on the westcoast)
me: so I'll be around until...uh..forever
Friendly: (of the US) (chuckle). Well, greetings then.
me: greetings. RefSteel, I presume?
Friendly: I won't be around forever.
me: This is Cyneheard
Friendly: Yup. "Ref Eriksson"
me: Right. [OOC: MOO ramblings]
me: so, brass tacks. There's tech, and there's NAP
Friendly: Right
me: first question: who all have you met?
Friendly: Those seem like the obvious items for discussion.
me: we're missing Rome and Aztec
Friendly: We've met ... uh .... We've met Rome, but not Aztec
We're missing ...
me: ok, so you'll still need Archery
Friendly: (true) ... Inca, Otto, France...
me: Inca?
Friendly: ...'tecs...
me: I'm surprised. France has had atrocious scouting
Friendly: ...Carthage, though we'll meet them soon I think. So I hear [re: France]. ...and HRE
me: HRE's to our north
Friendly: We've had pretty attrocious scouting too. Really bad early luck with barb locations
me: we've lost 2 warriors
Friendly: Cool. Prrsha (the warrior who met you) can hopefully head up and meet them
me: he met at our territory? I've lost track of who's where. presuming a NAP, we'll definitely agree to OBs
Friendly: Prrsha met south of your territory. i.e. saw your territory, but the very southernmost reaches of it
me: aye. where is Prrsha right now? what resources is he near?
Friendly: South of the zone between you and Carthage. I ... don't know. I haven't been in the game for a couple turns.. There's a row of three mountains, right? North of Mali?
me: yeah. we've dropped Gibraltar there, it's hooked up to our road network
Friendly: She should be a few tiles west and maybe a tile or two north of that
me: ok, I'd head northeast, until you enter our territory, and we'll direct you from there. Ottomans are west of HRE
Friendly: Sounds good. It'll depend on terrain though. Barbs are out in force, it would appear.
me: they definitely are. even Conan the Antibarbarian chariot can barely heal between combats
Friendly: (laughter)
me: we've had fun with our names
Friendly: Yeah. Us too.
me: Do you know your MC ETA?
Friendly: Not precisely. Partly due to barbs (we may have to whip more than we'd like)
me: about when, do you think? A 5t range would be sufficient, I think
Friendly: I was going to say 15-20 turns But then realized. 13-18 is more accurate now. I'm working with out of date info
me: so T85-90
Friendly: And 18 would be if we whip down to nothing. Yeah. Guestimating
me: ok, Monarchy will come in when finished forgot about the winery
Friendly: No problem
me: we keep on pushing back when we'll settle one of wine spots
Friendly: Yeah, I know. It's currently planned for our next city though
me: do you have Fishing?
Friendly: We do now, yeah
me: right, Rome
Friendly: (correct) I should talk to my teammates too - it might be better to wait a bit on archery actually Not sure.
me: why? I assume you have Hunting? We can't give you Hunting
Friendly: I'm not sure what their plans are, and I'm pretty sure we don't need archers soon. We have hunting. We also have strat resources hooked up And would rather beat up on barbs as they come in
me: right, Maya, you'd have Hunting
Friendly: (smile)
me: so, when do you think you'd want Archery? If you get HBR somehow (HRE researched it) you'll need it for HAs
Friendly: That's what I'm going to ask Maniac & Cull. Yeah, we know
me: ok. Archery doesn't cost anything to have
Friendly: Sure
me: unlike some other techs
Friendly: (chuckle)
me: like Hunting; can't build warriors if you have copper sometimes that's not good
Friendly: Indeed - although more in SP
me: well, HR happiness, but, yeah, we're going to use archers/spears/axes for that
Friendly: Exactly. Also, When you have ball courts
me: you don't need nearly as much
Friendly: Yeah. HR is still terrific, but You don't need more units for happy than you do for MP defense
me: well, on this map, everything's a border
Friendly: Yeah
me: except your capital, maybe
Friendly: Well. Yeah, I was going to say, Tell that to India and Sumeria. Oh, wait. Can't tell Sumeria anymore.
me: How bloody was your war with India, if I may ask?
Friendly: Eh ... not so bloody that we're Enemies Forever
me: yeah, we got that from your email
Friendly: We shredded some of their T-Shirts with our little kitten claws, And lost the claws in question [OOC: Ref's MOO reports can be a little metaphorical, as well] That was about it
me: no cities changed hands; did you get a worker? or kill one? We met India recently
Friendly: And frankly, we (the Kittens) were more unhappy about the T-Shirts than about the claws
me: ok, now you're being esoteric
Friendly: No - T-Shirt contest was a new city It auto-razed
me: oh, wow
Friendly: Both sides lost something, Neither side gained from the war
me: India, however, has rebuilt fairly well, I think
Friendly: And frankly, the longer we kept it up, the more that would continue to be true
me: early wars need to be decisive
Friendly: Yeah. They now have more cities than before the war started
me: see, Sumeria.
Friendly: Yeeeeup And Korea
me: that wasn't a war
Friendly: True. Ours wasn't a war either, to be honest. Or rather - it wasn't our war.
me: NAP: We've been signing auto-renewing ones
Friendly: One thing on revolting to HR: I think we'd do that under one circumstance: If we sim things out and find the extra happy would actually speed up (or not slow down) MC's ETA.
me: I'd hate to have to renegotiate every 20t with 5-7 teams every 20t
Friendly: Would that be acceptable?
me: oh, we trust you to get MC as fast as you can
Friendly: I also like auto-renewing NAPs, BTW. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't another reason you didn't want us revolting to HR
me: there wasn't
Friendly: Okay
me: but it's not always helpful to revolt 3t before a tech comes in
Friendly: No - like I said, we'd sim it out.
Friendly: We've got a mixed military
me: it'll get mixed
Friendly: But they're ALL barbarian killers at the moment
me: just not yet
Friendly: Out of necessity
me: ouch
Friendly: Got swarmed
me: Byzantium's accidentally drafted themselves in barbusting duty for us
Friendly: (laughter)
me: Richard L. Jenkins is healing and about to fight another one
Friendly: Cool. Our scouting warriors never seem to meet barbs... [OOC: Meander into randomness, then back]
Friendly: I agree that auto-renewal = good
me: So, T100 the earliest a NAP could be cancelled, autorenewing, 10t cooldown?
Friendly: The way I like to phrase it is: NAP, indefinitely, as part of our other deals - starting T100, either team can ask to renegotiate the terms of the NAP. NAP ends 10 turns after that request if no agreement has been reached on the new terms.
me: 43EP limit, no ROP for armies at war with either civ (use good faith for advancing armies), no 3rd party gifting of units for attacking each other
Friendly: Stuff like Yeah. Although ROP is kinda funny for civs on opposite sides of the world, it should still be in there. World's small
me: we haven't always been bothering
Friendly: Yeah
me: we'd forgotten about 3rd party gifting as a roundabout
Friendly: Ugh
me: although Babylon did make it clear that was a no go
Friendly: Yeah
me: when we signed a similar deal with them
me: with you coming onto trading techs on our side basically everyone who's got any empire at all, so not Rome, Inca and maybe 1 other is passing around this round of techs. this isn't going to last. It can't.

Continued in the next post.

[Cyneheard]

Talking about the future [This is more important to read than the other 1/2 chat]:

It's all in the email account, but it's ridiculously long. This is probably the 98% relevant stuff, but 1/2 the material.

Friendly: True, "This round of techs" is likely up well before T100
me: aye. it'll be up by T90.
Friendly: Yeah
me: MC will probably be the last one, maybe Aesthetics
Friendly: It certainly would've been had India been teching it, if they were serious about the ETA they told us.
me: if they kept a Sumerian city distance is killing them we've got 3 first-ring cities and including unit costs are paying 19gpt
Friendly: Yeah
me: that is going to jump. distance is 2gpt for a 1st-ring site...even if it's just a 1-pop city
Friendly: Yeah I guess the easiest would be to check in-game. But I'm pretty sure India kept at least 1 Sumerian city And maybe 2
me: only 1, they're at 5 cities total
Friendly: Let's see: Capital, Horse City, Karaoke (stone), Bison Burgers (ex Sumerian Bison Pass), ?, Sumerian capital?
me: I'd have to check can't do it while paused
Friendly: Yeah, I know. Eh. Anyway, if they're at 5 cities, no matter where, Maint will be eating them alive For the moment
me: we'll be able to support a 5th in about 15t
Friendly: Oh, sure. Exactly
me: but our commerce will be coming in at 50pt by then
Friendly: Uh Yeah
me: actually, more, silver will be up
Friendly: Yup! Grass silver's always helpful!
me: ours is rivered, too
Friendly: I think they all are
me: if we were Fin, we might've settled on it +2 commerce the whole game and getting a grass tile
Friendly: If we'd seen it prior to settling, we might've settled on it.
me: for a cottage
Friendly: Yup. (b/c we ARE fin of course) Okay.
me: I think we've covered both the NAP and techs. Archery when requested
Friendly: Anything else you wanted to cover?
me: Monarchy and MC when available, NAP's been gone over
Friendly: Yup
me: can you write the formal email?
Friendly: (checks clock)
me: you had a specific way to write the general NAP. it can wait a day
Friendly: Okay. I'm happy with your wording honestly, so long as it's a good-faith agreement. My specific wording was as much as anything to make it clear we're interested in staying friendly.
me: we definitely are.
Friendly: Even if a situation comes up in the indefinite future that makes it look like war would be on the horizon, we'd like to talk about it and look for a peaceful way around ("renegotiate") rather than just have a "NAP canceled let's go to military buildup" cooldown.
me: honestly, the only reason we might ever attack you
Friendly: Same thing, just a different way of approaching it
me: is at the behest of an ally who felt it was needed and even then Friendly: Right. Hopefully we'd be able to work around that.
me: frankly, I don't even know of anyone who would want to
Friendly: (smile) I hope it stays that way. Vice-versa is likewise true.
me: peace through strength
Friendly: Heh. And repeat of previous line. In truth, I'm not expecting war between our civs ever - not in the foreseeable future anyway. My talk about NAP specifics was as much as anything to figure it out by talking about it.
For the future. Like I said, I haven't done anything like this (game) before.
me: Neither have I. 1 war is plenty for us for some time. for future tech trading purposes (feel free to not answer the question, although we won't answer it if you don't): if/when CAN splits, what single civ would you be most interested in sticking with, assuming the sides looked to be even?
I'd assume you'd join the large side of a 9v3 dogpile basically no matter what. I know we would, and did, that's why we ended up in CAN
Friendly: I personally (RefSteel) can see sticking with the 3 in a 9v3, under certain very specific circumstances. If I were flying solo. But our team is not crazy. And I'm not playing this game the way I would solo.
me: 6v6 or 7v5 look to be most likely (Rome, Inca and France will be non-factors)
Friendly: (sigh) Yeah. I kinda liked the Romans. But...
me: all three are woefully underdeveloped
Friendly: Yeah.
me: France isn't in slavery.
Friendly: Neither was Sumeria.
me: we've whipped more pop than France has.
Friendly: (gawk)
me: they only have 8 pop. I think we've whipped 9
Friendly: That ... is incredible.
me: which one?
Friendly: That they have 8 pop And have never whipped
me: like I said, woefully underdeveloped. don't play Elizabeth if you don't know how to open efficiently
Friendly: No kidding
me: because her traits are only commerce. Agg, Cre, and Exp all save hammers in different ways
Friendly: Well - depends on your civ, I think. Liz of Egypt woulda been interesting. Yup.
me: Gandhi of Egypt, however, is doing just fine
Friendly: Heh. Yes. Very. Gandhi of Egypt knows how to open efficiently. (grin)
me: We haven't met Rome, so can't get an opinion of them.
Friendly: Rome ... is aggressive Rome. I like their diplo style. But I don't think aggressive Rome has a future with the tech speed of this game.
me: they're also only at 2 cities and 1 settler
Friendly: Yup That's not the end of the world if you're Fin or Philo. Krill was there not many turns ago.
me: Krill also had THE wonder
Friendly: Our copper happened to be right in our third city's first ring. The third city we'd planned since well before BW
me: nice.
Friendly: Yeah. Hmm. You asked that question about a two way split.
me: yeah, thought you'd chosen not to answer, but go ahead.
Friendly: Well. I think it would depend on...
me: we'll answer, as well.
Friendly: ...what happens in the meantime. But, If it happened now? We just met you, so saying you guys would be lying.
me: Of course.
Friendly: There are a few teams we like. But if I (Ref) had to pick one? (Is that the question?)
me: basically, or what you think your team would do
Friendly: Well, I think the answer's the same.
me: that's a good thing
Friendly: Would you agree not to spread it around? (I'll agree to the same)
me: ok. Although we might talk about impressions of who we'd expect you to side with/against with 3rd parties; it just wouldn't be concrete (Like, if it was India, we'd quote your e-mail you already sent). Since CAN isn't stable, I do want to be thinking about (and to some extent discussing) England's options for the future.
Friendly: Right. Well. After all that temporizing, it actually isn't close. Kyan (Babylon) by a country mile.
me: ah, good. Although I can't quite say it's a country mile, but, yeah, Babylon. Krill is powerful, and a useful ally. But I don't trust him to be on my side forever.
Friendly: (nod)
me: If CAN's deal wasn't 10 country miles better than Babylon's
Friendly: Maniac and I disagree about Krill and India.
me: we'd have never joined CAN
Friendly: I know what you mean. But our disagreement is in degree only. We think they'll basically work with us as long as we're useful to them.
me: Carthage is close to Krill
Friendly: We haven't met Carth yet. But will soon.
me: they're your northern neighbors
Friendly: I know
me: since we haven't seen your lands, I can't give coords
Friendly: That's okay, I know where they are. Not close like India/Sumeria
me: right, the extra row + the desert line...
Friendly: And we settled our new cities (by coincidence) directly away from them. (right). Prrsha would meet them soon, but Krill's apparently arranging a meeting even sooner between our scouting unit near him and one of theirs
me: lots of meetings need to be arranged
Friendly: Yeah
me: Krill spoke today of a Egypt/Carthage/us/Babylon/Mali/you split; the whole point of my question was to see if that made sense.
Friendly: We met Portugal T71
me: he's been engineering it for 5-10t
Friendly: Egypt ... Cath ... you ... Bab ... Mali ... us. Wow.
me: it's a strong group
Friendly: Yeah. Personally, I love it.
me: good. I'll let him put out feelers; as far as he's concerned, we didn't bring it up
Friendly: Bring what up? (grin). Okay - I'd better go. Did you want to send that e-mail, or shall I?
me: Can you?
Friendly: If Krill gets that split you were talking about
me: I don't expect it to last forever
Friendly: His nearest neighbor in that group, and Carthage's? Whose land they might want to share?
me: um, we're east of Carthage, and we'll be sharing France's land with Krill
Friendly: Yeah. Hmmm. I was looking at getting eaten by Krill+Carth ourselves though. If that split were to happen. And if that split were to end up as the set of teams left standing. And y'know what? I nevertheless like the idea
me: honestly, if Krill arranges a dogpile on me, then I'll know I've played well.
Friendly: Exactly
me: If I arrange a dogpile on him
Friendly: ?
me: long-term
Friendly: I know
me: Krill cannot survive until the end game. I should follow it up, though.
Friendly: 'cause if he does, he wins.
me: I'll know I played really well.
Friendly: Well. Yeah. I was going to say: I don't expect our team to win this thing. If we get to the point where Krill has to take us out because he has no other direction to expand efficiently, I'm happy even if he succeeds
me: he'll have 2 dead neighbors soon enough
Friendly: France?
me: yeah, assuming he bothers to send an army
Friendly: (chuckle)
me: we won't burn Orleans. the other two, yeah but Orleans is too far for us to worry. I think.
Friendly: Indeed.
me: we haven't seen Orleans but that suggests where it is and where it is not
Friendly: He set up forwarding for all the other CAN teams for us
me: If we 10v2'd Krill and Carthage they'd be dead
me: but you know what would happen if it was too soon? We'd be in a 6v4
Friendly: (nod). I don't want to dogpile Krill to be honest. Anyway not soon.
me: If I told India that we could arrange that dogpile, they'd jump at it
Friendly: Yeah, They're happy with a 6v4, As long as they're in the 6
me: especially when one of their most powerful foes, us, is easily 3v1d. if Carthage was gone, Ottos could hit us, HRE's right north, and Portugal's not far
Friendly: Indeed
me: in about 2t, our power's probably going to hit #1, assuming minimal casualties
Friendly: Wow. (in the barb fighting, you mean?)
me: no, not barbs
Friendly: Wow. Krill is going to have two dead neighbors SOON
me: well, the sooner they go, the less we lose killing them
Friendly: Yeah, Clearly. Not in slavery.

[Cyneheard]

I double-checked the reload, everything is in order. We're back to T71, so next turn I'll be glad that we've got screenies of everything: Cities, explorers, etc.

Oh, pre-reload, Byzantium ended up at 1.7/2 health on T72. We'll see what happens this time around, if the RNG acts differently.

EDIT:

Carthage just sent us this glorious e-mail: I fired off a quick "Please, but try to do it quickly b/c late T73 they might get suspicious" response.

Guys,

France has offered to trade maps with Carthage, and it has us thinking - would French map information help your war efforts? We are trying to stall any discussions we can for as long as we can, but see this as an opportunity to be materially helpful in your efforts, even if Numidian Cavalry would arrive too late to be of assistance.

Let us know what you think.

Until later,

Mr. Nice Guy for Team Nice Shot

[Cyneheard]

The Maya NAP Proposal deserves a post, as well:

The HR clause is superfluous, and can be removed. I'd like to add a 43EP limit clause. They have wines, so Monarchy is needed right away, regardless.

Dear Lords of Avalon (CHASM/England) -

Formalizing the agreements we made by chat earlier this evening:

1) We'll trade techs to each other: Archery on request, Monarchy and Metal Casting when each come in. The Friendly Kittens also agree to delay revolting to Hereditary Rule if necessary to avoid delaying Metal Casting's ETA, and in principle we'll continue trading techs with each other (which ones, and whether for other techs or cash or whatever, can be worked out as plans become clearer) as the game continues.

2) We agree to a NAP, to last at least through turn 100, but automatically renewing indefinitely. If either side finds that the terms of the agreement are no longer acceptable at any time after turn 100, they can tell the other so, leading to a 10 turn grace period with the NAP still in effect for cooling down and/or renegotiation; the NAP would then expire at the end of the grace period if no new agreement can be reached, or as agreed by both sides in a new agreement.

3) The terms of the NAP are that neither side will attack the other, nor support an attack on the other, for instance by gifting units to a third party to join an attack on the other or granting right of passage to third-party units that will participate in such an attack. The point of this agreement is for our civs to actually work together peacefully.

Is that everything? Let us know if I left anything out or said something poorly - or of course if we're in agreement!

Very Truly Yours,

Ref Eriksson for Ragnar of the Friendly Kittens (Maya)

[antisocialmunky]

Guys,

France has offered to trade maps with Carthage, and it has us thinking - would French map information help your war efforts? We are trying to stall any discussions we can for as long as we can, but see this as an opportunity to be materially helpful in your efforts, even if Numidian Cavalry would arrive too late to be of assistance.

Let us know what you think.

Until later,

Mr. Nice Guy for Team Nice Shot

Seriously. I feel bad for France. I say we get it and offer Carthage something nice for the help...