Myrran retort

[Nelphine]

Continued from sorcery thread regarding golems and magic immunity:

Not sure what unit is actually good to fight golems though. Multifigure is usually not - high armor counters it. Bow units don't deal enough damage to overcome high armor either. Magic doesn't work. So, single figure high attack? But those are almost never available early if the race even has any.
...heck this might mean the golems are overpowered actually. What exactly can kill a golem? (assuming you have at least Healing and Holy Armor)

Those stats are the primary reason I think it should require armorers guild. It doesn't match anything else at the fighter guild level even without magic immunity.

However, without those stats, halberdiers eat the golem up, and then magic immunity doesn't matter. Thus why I think it should require an armorers guild. (Every other reason is secondary to this.)

However, on rich you could still rush golems, which the AI still won't understand. And especially dark elves have virtually no answer to golems.


@arnuz regarding my game: yes, that's why I say I played poorly. It was just too scary to only have 3 cities by the time the AI filled up the plane.

[Seravy]

I know that sounds weird but what if we make the Golem require a Maritime Guild instead? It's a big mechanical construct like a ship, and you need to control it from somewhere with signals, like a lighthouse. And at least then it's an actual decision, not just an extra along the hammerhands.
...ok this is a stupid idea and has the same problem as the Armorer's Guild, too easy to afford it anyway...I don't think building requirements mean much to dwarves (unless the player is playing on poor land, but that's not what we should plan for).

Speaking of Dwarf Priest...I can only imagine this as a melee unit with Healing spell, magical ranged is completely unacceptable for this race.. Not a fan of giving Dwarves access to purify and overland healer however, both of those abilities are way above average for this race and it already is very powerful. And a priest without any of these nor ranged attacks is not really a priest anymore.

[Domon]

so, should we look for a different concept os should we consider the idea rejected?

[Nelphine]

Why not give dwarf priest a magical ranged attack? I'm confused by that from both balance - steam cannons will still be better - and lore - dwarf priests are one of the most common cleric/magic user found throughout fiction (obviously elven mages are more common). You could even make it 1 weaker than the average priest to show that dwarves are more defensive in nature. (Assuming they also get +1 HP and +4 resistance as usual.)

And for overland healing.. Why not? I don't understand why this is bad? (Given every other nyrran race can do it, and you can therefore get it from one city..)

Same for purification. You yourself said earlier (discussing draconian bowmen) why it seems strange for one race to miss something so basic and so obviously important.

But with draconian bowman, there are huge abusable issues with them. With purify, you just need to get a city from almost any other race in existence. 'But minerals are so powerful for dwarves!' Again, this is why I'm against dwarf shamans; but purify doesn't beat raise volcano, so chaos can still wreck them.

[Seravy]

Which one?

Dwarven priest is rejected yes. (tho a melee healer unit would be interesting, no one has that, but don't think this is the race that needs it. High Men maybe? "Crusaders" ? Could be a halberdier tier cavalry unit the has healing and is weaker than a paladin, but only needs a shrine or parthenon?)

Not that all of this brainstorming is very useful without having units to remove and I'd hate losing basic units like spearmen or swordsmen on too many races without a very good reason.

[Nelphine]

As for golems and armorers guild. The stats still say it should be an armorer's guild unit. No that doesn't solve the magic immunity problem, but it should be the basis for the unit. Why can they get a powerful per-figure unit faster than anyone else (most need armorer's guild plus stables, or armorer's guild plus fantastic stable).

That solves the stats. Then we can look at magic immunity separately from the stat problem.

[Nelphine]

Why is a dwarf priest rejected? Not trying to convince you at this point, would just like to hear your reasoning. (Two posts back, yes I was trying to convince you, but you just said its rejected so I'd like to hear why.)

[Seravy]

Why not give them a magical ranged attack?

Dwarves hate magic. They don't get wizard's guilds, sage's guilds or amplifying towers. So their priest would not use magic either if that's the main theme of the race.

Don't know much about lore to be honest but people play dwarf clerics in RPGs because they want durability on their cleric I believe, not because dwarves are good at healing magic.

[Nelphine]

Heh I'm talking books and fiction not just games - yes in games, dwarves are also classic clerics. But dwarf clerics, complete with healing magic are pretty common.

But that's the theme you want, so I'll live with it.

[Seravy]

I've already rejected the armorer's guild idea for two reasons :
-It solves nothing, it's too easy to build one with this race (yes, better than nothing but completely marginal)
-It makes the race unlock two of its 3 main units with the same building which is poor design and not interesting to play, especially if said building is the highest tier.
-And the above also reduces the AI's chances of having one of the special units - instead of getting one if they roll "mechanician's guild" or "Armorer's guild" they only get something for the latter so their chance to unlock the top unit is far lower. (subject to modifiers ofc but on average)
(in fact it's worse : they need to roll BOTH buildings to ever have golems - the AI rarely gets there even as is)