I still believe Gav's stack isn't meant to attack us. I think he's using our territorial waters as a staging area to come at someone else from an unexpected direction. Of note: For that purpose, he can use teleportation to his advantage if he understands the rules correctly (or has simmed the situation) by closing borders (and probably re-offering them again) before he moves his stack. Of course I don't know who and when he'd be attacking (still hoping for Dark Savant, but there's a chance he could be trying to hit GJ the way he did to dtay earlier in the game) and of course we still need to make sure our holdings are defended adequately.
For our part, I think it's best to start stacking our Frigates near Dark Savant; they're much more vulnerable to enemy ships when we only have one on each tile, and there's not really any point in blockading unimproved coast. Keeping Galleons trapped in Steadwick (are they even still there?) is counter-productive right now: If he wants to suicide units against Mist or land them on flatland so we can clean them up or move his Galleons out into the water with few enough Frigates that we can kill the whole stack, that's fine by me. What we want to do with them instead is a separate question: There are several worthwhile possibilities, but my information about the region (especially including Dark Savant's known forces) is far enough out of date that I can't be sure any one I suggest wouldn't be silly. Bombarding Fountain Head's defenses is a good call if we can do so safely; forking three of his coastal cities or threatening to land a stack next to any one of four, with their defenses all at zero, should be helpful for securing peace.
I also notice we're building a lot of infrastructure considering we're in Theocracy, actively at war, and concerned about a possible attack on a second frontier. This might make sense if Gav goes hard after Dark Savant ASAP, except that in that case we'd be better off in OR, with Bulugan working on the HE, and saving gold so we can follow him and Krill to MilSci for the known tech bonus. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure we could use more Cats at a minimum. (On Universities, it doesn't really make sense to build any outside of Borte unless we're going to finish our seventh around the same time as the others this way to unlock Oxford University. The other Universities are okay as long-term investments individually if we build them in OR, especially in places where we want the culture too, but it takes a long time for them to pay for themselves even in comparison with just building Wealth unless you include Oxford in the calculation.)
All that said, war turns like this are incredibly complex, and you're doing an impressive job with them! I also like your idea of balancing present power and future teching ability; I just want to make sure we're not missing something important in the execution.
Is it worth considering war-peacing Gavagai? Perhaps after a turn or two more of building defenses. The uncertainty seems to be hampering your game.
Except, after a moment's thought, you really don't want to do that while still at war with DS . Even without that, Gavagai could all too easily just think it would be fun to start a side-show while the big boys burn down the rest of the world.
Anyway, if the worst comes to the worst and someone with rifling does turn up on your doorstep, I strongly recommend Old Harry's reports in PBEM 77 (thread originally started by Dhalphir) as an example of exactly how annoying a defender can be (and how much fun they can have) with Grens, Muskets and ... er ... chariots against multiple invasions with cavs, rifles and cannon. Plenty of life in this game even if dtay and Joey get frisky.
Oh, and I'm cross-posting with RefSteel. I'd listen to him rather than me if I were you .
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
(November 9th, 2017, 12:24)JR4 Wrote: Krill`s window is about to close.
His window to do what? Drag himself and Gav down with a pointless, fruitless war? Stab GJ in hopes of ending the game by concession to dtay ASAP? Try to find some islands he can vulture or something? We were saying for just ages that Krill needed a favorable split of China to remain competitive with the leaders in thiss game. He didn't get it, and the calculus hasn't changed. There might be a slender path toward a cultural victory or something, but that's an awfully narrow needle to thread if there's any way at all. As you said, this game is now a two-horse race.
(November 9th, 2017, 16:53)shallow_thought Wrote: Is it worth considering war-peacing Gavagai? Perhaps after a turn or two more of building defenses. The uncertainty seems to be hampering your game.
Except, after a moment's thought, you really don't want to do that while still at war with DS
Also we don't want to nuke those trade routes again. We could just offer fish for fish (iron for iron probably doesn't make sense since the only thing we still want to get out of Dark Savant is peace) so he knows he doesn't have to worry that we might try to retake Babukhan while he's off adventuring, and so we know (if he offers it back) that he intends to leave us alone. I'm not sure we would do much of anything differently even if he agreed though, and he might not "accept" even if he does plan to leave us in peace. Also of course, what if we get peace with Dark Savant and then do want to make a play to our west? (I admit the chances of that seem a bit remote.)
Quote:Anyway, if the worst comes to the worst and someone with rifling does turn up on your doorstep, I strongly recommend Old Harry's reports in PBEM 77 (thread originally started by Dhalphir) as an example of exactly how annoying a defender can be (and how much fun they can have) with Grens, Muskets and ... er ... chariots against multiple invasions with cavs, rifles and cannon. Plenty of life in this game even if dtay and Joey get frisky.
And Cats. Lots and lots of Cats. And unlike OH in that game, we also have 3-promo Knights and an actual economy. We may yet even achieve the dream of an HE/MA city churning L5 Cavs ... as long as dtay doesn't come across the border with Tanks or something before we get the opportunity.
Quote:Oh, and I'm cross-posting with RefSteel. I'd listen to him rather than me if I were you
Thanks, but I think you're mistaking me for someone who knows what I'm talking about when it comes to MP Civ!
I guess we`ll find out where Gavagai`s boats are heading in the next few turns, perhaps this turn already. Yes, going for Joey would probably let dtay run away with the game. We really can`t afford to lose those tasty trade routes with the Ottoman Empire so we`re basically just sitting still for now on the western sea. Sending a fish-for-fish deal to Gavagai could be an option but we`ll have to be sure that we`re not targeting him. I`d like to consider it if we can get enforced peace with DS. Do you think DS is on tilt? He`s acted very rationally until recently and then just refused to send an offer back to us, seemingly in order to harm us at all costs.
Krill`s position in this game is slowly getting worse. I agree that he doesn`t have any easy options outside capturing a few island cities, which is not going to win the game for him. He probably has to attack Gavagai in order to win that way but it`s going to be hard, to say the least. Actually, i think the Sistine Chapel is going to give him a realistic chance of winning the game (maybe 5 %). If the 2 Great Powers are containing each other, then an attempt to go for the culture win might be feasible.
Okay, let`s stack the Frigates now. We`d rather not lose any expensive ships to counterattacks. If we`re lifting the blockade on Dark Savant`s port cities we`ll have to be able to hit a stack landing on Mist island. I really like the idea of giving DS the option of going wrong here. Getting rid of some Ethiopian units would improve our chances of another random raze. We`re keeping an advantage on the eastern sea in the foreseeable future.
Playing these war turns is very exciting but there is a lot of considerations to make. I`m a bit concerned about our tech rate and think we have to improve it, even building fewer units. Getting better weapons (and not falling too far behind Joey and dtay) is ever so important for us. I`ll keep the need for fresh reinforcements to the front in mind when playing the next turn, though. More Catapults is always going to help if one of the neighbors comes knocking. Would it be a good idea to make a swap to Organized Religion instead of Theocracy? It`s a bit of a gamble, of course.. Bulugan should start on the HE on one of the coming turns.
@Shallow_thought: Yes, reading the reports of Old Harry is always entertaining. He`s a strong player on the defense, not giving anything away to the others.
(November 9th, 2017, 16:53)shallow_thought Wrote: Anyway, if the worst comes to the worst and someone with rifling does turn up on your doorstep, I strongly recommend Old Harry's reports in PBEM 77 (thread originally started by Dhalphir) as an example of exactly how annoying a defender can be (and how much fun they can have) with Grens, Muskets and ... er ... chariots against multiple invasions with cavs, rifles and cannon.
Thanks for pointing on this thread. It was a fun reading indeed.
A very quiet turn. According to the Event Log - nothing happened since last turn! A Great Person is due in Nambui on t190. I don`t think we`d want yet another Engineer. Having e.g a Great Priest would allow us to start a GA at will. Nambui has a strong garrison but could surely need another Musket or Grenadier. Also, Nambui is yet to build its Bank, Observatory and University.. Finding the right balance between military and infrastructure is hard. Our eastern cities are generally constructing buildings and our western cities units. Another 3 Knights and a few other units complete eot.
For some reason, Gavagai and chumchu haven`t played yet. Hmm, I`m wondering what Gavagai is up to. Or maybe I`m just reading too much into the delay! Being in a turn split for a long time is slightly annoying, but hasn`t really slowed the game down. I wouldn`t play more than a turn per day at this stage anyway.
We`re finishing Military Science this turn! I still think it`s better to get it asap instead of waiting for more ktb from Krill and Gavagai. A couple of Pikes were started (Civilopedia said they`ll upgrade to Grenadiers). Having access to Ships of the line will be nice for naval warfare.
There are 6 Frigates of ours on the western sea so we`ll only be at a minor disadvantage (and could quickly build more ships) if Gavagai decides to strike..
(November 10th, 2017, 12:51)OT4E Wrote: I think pikes wont upgrade into grens unless you have rifling too..
Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing that out. We`re currently building 2 Pikes (in Danashri and Oghul Qaimish) so it`s not costing us a lot. Pikes are still useful in this era and the Pike in Oghul Qaimish is half-built so I think we`ll just leave the builds as they are.
Yup; Pikes don't queue-upgrade to anything until Rifles and Grens have both been unlocked (they do become Grens at that point though). It looks like Danashri has a lot of overflow going into the pike. We could build Wealth there instead to preserve the overflow for a Gren/SotL, or just get a Cat out of it...
Getting MilSci ASAP isn't a bad idea if we do start work on the newly-unlocked units next turn, but it also raises a question: If I remember correctly, it enables the Police State Civic. If our largest (and/or most-whipped) cities can afford the loss of HR happiness and we don't expect to go into OR for another 5 turns, I would suggest swapping into the new civic. If Gav declares on Not Us and Dark Savant's power graph stays stagnant (or if he grants peace) I would definitely switch into OR to finish all those infrastructure builds while our neighbors are occupied. If we can spare the HR happy, I would even swap to PS/Bureau/Slavery*/Merc/OR. That would let any cities not building infrastructure cheaply build units to near-completion instead so we could finish them after swapping back to Theo. (The asterisk is because this assumes we'd want to whip Universities or other infra in some cities. Otherwise, we might choose something else.)
I'm not sure if Dark Savant is on tilt or just believes we can't possibly hold Mist (since his homeland surrounds it on three sides). I suspect his position is basically that we have nothing left to gain from fighting him, so there's no point in giving us peace. Relatedly, he might just want to "punish" us for attacking him, to discourage attacks (by anyone) later on. I like your idea of luring him into a trap on Mist island. Let's see what happens in the next few turns....
(Which of the units in Mist are on Galleons, by the way? And how much of Dark Savant's military can we see?)
. Even without that, Gavagai could all too easily just think it would be fun to start a side-show while the big boys burn down the rest of the world. 
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