MOO is great, and strangely unique - all later 4X games, including MOO2, seem to have felt the need to follow some patterns laid down by Civilization. Describing what is different would take a while (meh, maybe I'll start a thread), but one thing is the same - it's a deep game. Despite the lack of MP, the there are competent players, good players, and players who make you go "wow". I can win on impossible (hey, I have screenshots, and everything!) but still tend to play on hard to relax, but picking weaker races ("civs") and imposing variants can keep even the experts interested.
(November 23rd, 2017, 10:31)Coeurva Wrote: I think I might be up to play it in December/January, though, so see you there, perhaps.
(November 23rd, 2017, 11:51)JR4 Wrote: Thanks for the introduction to Master of Orion, Couerva! Maybe I`ll give it a try some day. FWIW, I`ll probably not join the new PB starting in the New Year but will probably be a global lurker. Yes, the turns take a lot of time and effort to play. I know what you mean.
I read Coeurva's comment as he was thinking of giving MOO a serious try in December/January. It's entirely possible that I've misunderstood, but there's an excellent chance that anyone wanting to step up from "Hard" to "Impossible" (or just learn more) would get a positive response in the MOO subforum if they wanted, for example, a succession game in January ... . As stated, I personally can still find plenty of challenge playing at Hard or as a strong race.
Which reminds me that I really need to try and keep playing the current MOO IMP game despite the spoiler deleted. I did sponsor it, after all.
Back to this game.
Hmm. Tech choices are hard. You're not really looking to go on the offensive, so you'd rather prioritise something other than military techs (but what?), without finding yourself unable to defend, or at least deter.
Ref muttered something about Rifling being a trap - I guess because you lose the capability to whip/draft cheap muskets? Similarly, with steel you need to actually be able to have enough cannon when you need them, which means either having them sitting around (or bleeding hammers in build queues) or some way to summon them out of thin air. If this were BTS I'd be looking at a Combustion beeline for modern naval units (Steel being en-route), but destroyers are somewhere different in RtR, aren't they? On this map, ironclads might still be important, at least on defence, but they need both Steel and Steam Power.
Enough rambling. I'd be tempted to gamble and go for Printing Press before Steel if it can be done quickly, unless you think cannon would persuade DS to go for peace. It brings economic benefit while working towards Rifling and Steam Power (that's based on BTS, but I think holds for RtR).
Thanks, as always for the reports (and Ref's stories!).
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
Great introduction to Master of Orion, Coeurva! And welcome to our thread! Also:
(November 23rd, 2017, 10:31)Coeurva Wrote: I have to mention to RefSteel that Psilons absolutely doesn't fit us (although I guess they can draw Erratic iirc).
Heh - I was just randomly picking races for the silly GNN "Also in the news..." without comparing them to the actual civs involved. I still say you guys played a pretty strong game given your circumstances, but I don't know any of the details - I'm looking forward to reading your thread after the game! This seems like it might be fun though: Maybe I'll assign each player a proper MoO race and leader the next time I write a strategic game review!
As for our actual civ:
I said I thought Rifling was a trap here (at least if taken as our next military tech) in very small part because it obsoletes some cheap units and drafted muskets, but in large part because rifles are mainly useful for defending against horse units, while our opponents seem to be focused on Cannons + Rifles (in the case of the leaders) and Grennies (in the case of everyone else). The former can eat everything short of Machine Guns without prejudice, so you have to attack out with siege an/or Grens to stop them, and the latter eat rifles specifically. The leaders do have Knights in their stacks right now, but 2-promo Grens should do fine defending against them until the Cannons can roll in. We do need a lot more Grenadiers, naturally.
One thing about having all this gold: If one of the leaders does attack immediately, a million Gren upgrades are going to be more valuable for our defense then any tech we could have gotten in the meantime would have been. The price would hurt us - in fact, they would guarantee that even if we hold off this invasion, we'd just be fodder for dtay or GJ's in the next war, whenever that is - but they'd let us hurt the aggressor's war machine and maybe make him pay for attacking us enough that they'll both foresee the possibility and leave us alone for a while instead of forcing us to do it to them. That remains the goal of course: To convnce them not to come after us anytime soon. I don't think those Galleons are directly threatening for the same reason I didn't think Gav's were threatening: That's not where he'd position them if he were committed to an attack. He might be searching for weak defenses though, or even have Amphi units on board searching for targets of opportunity. Or he might be distributing a bunch of spies and sentries around the world or something. And of course if we ignored Galleons being moved that way, it would be a good way to set up an attack instead of a bad one, so you're certainly doing the right thing in boosting our defenses.
Steel is definitely a good tech. I'd like to finish some Cats (and/or get a head-start on some Cannons) while it's in progress, but of course we also need Grennies, and...
(November 23rd, 2017, 11:51)JR4 Wrote: At least we`re getting a lot of production in this GA, to try to keep up with that power, at least to some extent.
Even in our GA, our production is below average (whether you use the mean or median) and the same is unsurprisingly true of our crop yield, so the whip won't really make up for the gap. Now, it's true that two of our rivals are also in GAs, so we'll be ahead of Gavagai for a couple of turns and might stay ahead of Krill until the GA ends, and if we'll be ready to convert the extra windmills back to mines immediately, our MFG might stay competitive with GA Dark Savant, but I don't think we'll ever see average production again.
On the other hand, remember how I said Dark Savant wouldn't come close to matching our GNP? For the moment, that's an extreme understatement. If we don't have to burn our gold on upgrades, we're going to stay decently competitive on tech for a while in spite of our super-neighbors' lead!
On the Spiral Minaret: I think it would pay for DR and the cost of the building itself (relative to building wealth) in something like 20 turns after it's completed. That probably means that in our circumstances, the correct strategic move is to skip it, sadly. If we think we'll have another 30 turns of peace, and we can get DR in a turn or two while setting up a bunch of overflow to start the build in Borte (or if we're teching to Nationalism anyway but don't plan to be in Pacifism for a long time if ever, and if we can afford the production for the Wonder when we're hammer starved and commerce rich anyway) it would be worth the investment, but either way, that's probably one "if" too many. I want to tech Music -> (Philo?) -> DR -> Nat -> MT, but we might need to tech something like (finish Steel) -> Alpha -> PP -> Rep Parts -> (Rifling if GJ &/or dtay have teched MT for Cavs, or if we see them massing Knights without enough Cannons & Rifles) -> Steam Power -> Railroads. I guess we'll see!
Joey`s Galleons are generally heading NE through our waters. Could he be thinking about an attack on dtay (when the enforced peace ends) or perhaps Gavagai? Or maybe he`s setting up a commando raid on us. Toregene has 3 defenders and Borte has 4, so I think we`re safe for the time being.
Another 4 Granadiers and a Catapult finish eot. Chubei has invested 47 hammers in a Catapult, so we can get our first Cannon built there quickly.
In the third screenshot you can see a reason for optimism. Gavagai`s GA came to an end and he swapped into.. Theocracy and Nationalism. I think he`s got hostile intentions here. Hopefully towards Dark Savant. We`ve been in a turn split for a very very long time now which I`d like to get out of. Also, DS rebuilt Nighon! It`s got a single Oromo guarding it (with Pinch and Formation).
The 3 Buddhism spreads as of t199 is helping our economy along. Muqa is making 166 gpt at full research in a GA!
Regarding our tech path, let`s head for Steam Power with maximum speed. I agree that we really can`t afford another detour at this stage of the game.
Graphs and demos: Rifling is a few techs away for us but wouldn`t be that costly when we get Replaceable Parts. I`m banking on a big ktb here. We don`t have to decide on that just yet, obviously. The point about Riflers doing worse against Cannons+Rifles is a valid one. We need a lot of Cannons ourselves to dissuade an attack. EDIT: We`re committed to Steel now so we might as well research it to completion. Replaceable Parts will be a good tech for us (as will Printing Press). The reason why we`re getting Steel first is because I really feel that we need Cannons. Now.
We have basically taken a gamble by building the Oxford University and saving a ton of gold. Every turn passing without us getting attacked is a good turn.
Y'know ... Galleons are currently among the world's fastest boats, and are the cheapest to replace of the ones with their high speed. GermanJoey certainly has production to spare, and probably more Galleons than he immediately needs. There's a chance those things are just playing scout - for instance trying to locate our main forces, since he knows we're third in power by a good margin, so he'll know his sentry/sentries on our mainland won't have seen enough units to explain that. They may also be looking for opportunities though, e.g. to raze cities (of ours or Dark Savant's) that would be especially valuable if captured by dtay.
As for Power ratings: You're right that GermanJoey's stands out as both highest and fastest-growing. Dark Savant's, by contrast, stands out as the lowest and slowest-growing. Huh. Also, I just noticed/realized that the Carthaginian territory GJ took (including on the mainland) happen to ~border Fountain Head, which looks to me like it's practically undefended for GJ's purposes. (Even we could take or raze Fountain Head with a dedicated effort and a few turns' preparation if he doesn't reinforce it in the meantime.) This may be wishful thinking, but it is in now way impossible that Dark Savant will soon be in a three-way war without counting our civ! I think Gav might want Rifles first (for ... some reason?) and dtay might want to spend some time consolidating his Carthaginian holdings, but there are wolves circling right now, and if one of them seizes a chance, the others are going to join in.
We`re still alive on t200! The turn itself didn`t bring any major new developments. Dark Savant did however set a small trap for us. The Frigates near Fountain Head were vulnerable to a counterattack. Our scouting Frigate moved in to get a better view of the area and this awaited us..
Actually, there was an Ethiopian Frigate positioned on that Clam tile. We sort of had to take a gamble to get rid of it at 32 % as our Frigate was trapped by those 4 mover Ships of the Line. We won the battle! The Frigate had to be deleted as we really don`t want to deal with high XP Sotl right now. The 2 other Frigates NE of Fountain Head retreated to Tularean Forest. We`ve got 2 Ships of the Line completing eot. We`re gonna need a lot of them.. I really hope that someone decides to intervene in this war against DS. You might be right about DS facing a two- or three front attack soonish, let`s see.
Steel will complete eot. Our first Cannon will be built in Borte. A couple of other cities are also building Catapults that will upgrade to Cannons. We`re generally making units in our best hammer cities.
Joey now has 3 scouting Galleons still heading north in the eastern sea and another one right next to Oghul Qaimish.
Our next GP will be born in Bayan Khutugh eot. A Galleon is ready to ferry it over to a more secure location. Nambui`s next GP will follow a couple of turns later.
Graphs and demos: Our gnp is very high in a Golden Age with a lot of ktb. Joey`s power is still rising at an alarming rate. At least we`re building a lot of units ourselves so a conquest of us won`t come cheap.
So, there are still 6 civs left in this game. Who will end up in first place?
1. Joey is the favorite to win right now imo. He`s got an enormous territory and a huge power. Yes, there are a few things that could go wrong for him, like getting into a quagmire war against us or a surprise attack by dtay or Gavagai. Actually, I`m not sure where Joey will turn his attention next. He`s got a number of options. Joey`s production capacity is the biggest by far and will make sure that he can make a lot of units quickly. Or he could build Wealth everywhere to get Infantry/Destroyers before the others.
2 Dtay also has a good chance of winning the game. He`s got to get more land in order to challenge Joey. He could be going for us or Dark Savant. Dtay is teching quickly and looks to be on a Physics/Communism beeline. We don`t have any information on Joey``s tech path other than he`s got Steam Power and Rifling. Dtay definitely has Rifling (and is surely drafting a lot of them). Perhaps the one thing dtay has going for him is time. Joey won`t get any more cheap conquests it seems while dtay has more options.
3. Krill still has an outside chance of winning this game but he`ll need a lucky break. He`s built the Sistine Chapel to give himself a fighting chance. But he`ll need something like a full-blown war between the two leaders in order to get close to achieving victory. If Gavagai were to fail miserably in another war with DS, Krill might be able to knock him down but that`s pretty far flung. Realistically, I think Krill is going to end up in third.
4. Gavagai needs more land in order to stay competitive. He`s got a weak neighbor in DS and could try to overrun him. I don`t see any other ways to getting a higher place than 4th. I don`t think attacking Krill makes much sense for Gavagai.
5. JR4/RefSteel are still stuck in an unproductive war. If we ever could secure 10 turns of enforced peace I`d feel a lot more confident in ranking us above Dark Savant. One of the big Empires attacking us could lead to disaster quickly but we`re still relevant and will definitely cause big losses for the one that attacks us.
6. Dark Savant is surely hoping for us to be dragged into a two front war. It`s still a realistic possibility and then he`d be favorite to end up in 5th. His power is pretty low and the gap is getting larger with every turn it seems so I still think that Gavagai will attack him in the next 5 turns.
Yes, unfortunately DS has nothing better to do with his time right now than mess with you. Midly aggravating, but not unfair. Everyone is waiting for the big dogs to feel it's time to make a move, and in the meantime, might as well have what fun they can.
Could you do a magnfied screenshot of the minimap? Or some sort of overview shot showing territory across the globe? With the pair of greens and two yellowish colours it's a bit hard to get a feel for how things stand right now (other than there's a lot of light blue out there).
I guess that a long peace for the major powers mostly helps GJ at the moment, so dtay has to be looking to mix stuff up soon. Is there any sort of diplo you can do to suggest to dtay that he could make decent gains if he were to attack DS, with you pinning down at least some of DS forces (and looking to snipe a couple more cities), particularly if you didn't have to worry about guarding your border with the Zulu for a little while? Gavagai being in the mix as well adds complication, certainly, and AI diplo is pretty limited, but is a brief alliance possible?
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
(November 25th, 2017, 17:36)shallow_thought Wrote: Could you do a magnfied screenshot of the minimap? Or some sort of overview shot showing territory across the globe? With the pair of greens and two yellowish colours it's a bit hard to get a feel for how things stand right now (other than there's a lot of light blue out there).
The F5 screen shows a larger version of the minimap, though without cities marked. The F11 globe view (hit F11 again to exit) also shows a big super-zoomed-out picture. Regular zoomed-out screenies of interesting borderlands (or all of Dark Savant's territory and/or ours) might be the best alternatives though.
Quote:Is there any sort of diplo you can do to suggest to dtay that he could make decent gains if he were to attack DS, with you pinning down at least some of DS forces (and looking to snipe a couple more cities), particularly if you didn't have to worry about guarding your border with the Zulu for a little while? Gavagai being in the mix as well adds complication, certainly, and AI diplo is pretty limited, but is a brief alliance possible?
He might understand an offer of (our) Iron + Fish for (his) Iron + Horses, but honestly I don't think it matters. dtay knows what will happen if he attacks Dark Savant: We'll either get peace with Dark Savant or continue to be somewhat threatening, Gavagai will charge down from the north to take whatever he can, and GermanJoey will sweep in on any islands and southish coastal mainland he can grab. I don't think there's any diplomacy we can do that would change the equation for dtay in any meaningful way.
Now, if he does go after Dark Savant, and we reposition to the west and make a proposal of that kind for a mutual attack on Gavagai, that would be a whole different story. (If he understands and has even the remotest desire to play along...)
. As stated, I personally can still find plenty of challenge playing at Hard or as a strong race.
