Test games played

[Catwalk]

There's no need to calculate using Amp Towers. It's simply +25% production while you're constructing buildings (compounded).

A size 10 city will have around 24 base production, maybe +50% production for 36 total hammers. A 25% bonus is 9 hammers. It only kicks in when constructing buildings, let's say half of your production goes to buildings for the first 8 years. That makes it a 0,45 hammer bonus per pop. Sounds about right to me.

[Nelphine]

I was under the impression that it was a reduction in building cost, not an increase in production when making buildings.

If that is the case, yes that's much better, as you don't get any benefit when buying.

[Catwalk]

It's a reduction in building cost, but a 20% reduction in cost is exactly the same as a 25% boost (compounded). Except you're correct that it also kicks in when buying, didn't think about that. If it were a boost instead, it could be used to boost unit production as well.

[Nelphine]

Right. The buying is the huge problem. That's why I compare to high elves, and why amp towers are so problematical.

[Seravy]

Decided to drop my current game. I'm obviously doing better than I should due to the AI problem - those gargoyles are very strong against my spiders and spiders are the majority of my forces. I also haven't used High Men much, and negated the drawback of poor economy by finding excessive amounts of treasure.

So I rather try to make some decisions on what to change now and start a new game once I'm done with the updates. There are way too many things open to decide right now.

[Seravy]

About buying with High Men...why is that a problem? As a High Men player, you're getting significantly less gold than others - due to extra unrest you either can't keep your taxes high, or need to spend a lot on various unrest removal buildings or units. If you have less gold to begin with, why is it a problem that it has a better purchasing power?
Of course, you might not be a High Men player, in which case your conquered High Men cities can still buy buildings cheaper - but they'll have lots of rebels and you'll be missing out on income. On the long term, using your own race is probably more profitable - you can only save the building costs once, but the lack of income is permanent.

Needless to say if you play Life and have Stream of Life, you can ignore the whole thing and get both the gold and discount - but for a steep upkeep of 8 mana and 150 casting skill to cast the spell.

That said, 10% or 15% might be more balanced than 20%. We are trying to offset an extra 10% rebels after all, albeit on conquered races, it might be as much as 20-30% extra compared to another starting race, same if you conquered the high men city but didn't start with it.

[Nelphine]

Even if you arent getting as much gold, I believe 20% is still too high. I feel 15% is too high - 18 months of being a high elf, just for your amp tower, more than negates the lower gold. It makes high men the second/third best economy race in the game, sonewhere around dark elves (but behind dwarves). (20% would be distinctly second best, ahead of dark elves).

15% by itself wouldn't be too bad, but high men have 3 of the best units in the game. 8 figure pikemen (best unit in the game for buff shenanigans, or maybe second best behind jackal riders - armor piercing makes it hard to decide), 6 figure magicians, (which are the best city ranged unit, noticeably ahead of warlocks and other magicians), and paladins, (which are on par with rare summons if they have elite level and mithril.) So I feel 15% is too high.

[Arnuz]

For me it's not a problem. High men are just painful right now, like the other slow races.

[Seravy]

One thing to consider. The better units and the cheaper buildings are two "mutually exclusive" traits. You can't produce both at the same time, so any given time you either benefit from producing the better units, or the cheaper buildings.
This is similar to the bonus Halflings have - you either conquer other races and benefit from the zero racial unrest, OR you build halfling cities and benefit from the research generated, no city can have both at the same time either.

Such traits increase the versatility of the race, allows them to function in two different roles, but does not make the race stronger directly. (in case of high men, there is one exception, unlocking the strong units faster, but that is probably desired anyway and 10 or 20% isn't such a big deal on that. It's not going to turn them into a rush race or anything like that.)

My point is, if you want to abuse the cheaper buildings, you are giving up your chance to produce the good units, which keeps the race from going overpowered.

It seems everyone agrees cheaper buildings are good for the race, the only difference in opinions is the amount, so I'll start implementing that.

On the crusader vs priest vs paladin problem, they would be different enough. For the priest, yes, they'd both have the Healing Spell. However only priests have Purify, Healer, and Resistance to All, and only they have magical ranged attacks. I think those are unique enough roles. For the paladin, those come with Armor Piercing and Holy Bonus, plus two immunities and they'd also have better stats but no Healing spell. That's plenty of advantage over the crusader.

The main question is, do we want to replace the spearmen or the cavalry with the crusader, and do we want a "cavalry" type crusader or a "halberdier" type. I think replacing the spearmen with the cavalry type would be the best contribution to the race, giving them 3 distinct tiers of cavalry units.

And before even that, we need to know if high men Cavalry and Priests are really inadequate at being the "early" units the race can use to survive until the magicians and pikemen and paladins. Especially the Cavalry which only needs the stables.

[Nelphine]

I would replace the cavalry unit. I've never used it on high men. They aren't strong enough on their own, so I always skip them. 

As for only doing one or the other - no - you can build your amp tower for cheap, then build the great units. The cheaper building specifically allows for both, easier.