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Posts: 2,417
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I've been thinking about this decision a lot since earlier on today and I have convinced myself it was correct. 
Yaz has 3 axes and an Immortal to march something like 4-5 squares to get to Washington. In that time I would have been very very surprised if Darrell hadn't managed to persuade Ruff to lend his copper or even Krill if he can. Even if he couldn't - he has hunting so archery would have been a something like a 3 turn tech? He has masonry to whip walls and has his own horses that just need roading -which he can do now.
I see this really as making a friend for the game. I am feeling reasonably safe in my little position at the moment.
Darrell is clearly pleased with me
Dreylin is cordial and we have a NAP to T80
Ruff is Tokugawa but has been reasonably forthright. We have a NAP til T80
Krill is cordial and cannot reach me.
Yaz is going to be pissed but will have so much more on his plate from closer neighbours!
Game on to build some more cities!
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Square Leg Wrote:I am feeling reasonably safe in my little position at the moment. Especially as the one with Totem-pole enhanced protective Archers has so much to fear
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Rowain Wrote:Especially as the one with Totem-pole enhanced protective Archers has so much to fear
Oh yeah - apart from Lords - all my cities so far are on hills too!
Need Archery first - maybe I should slip that in before currency... Krill just played the save so I can check in game later on.
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Again - I have a lot of catching up to do but unfortunately work is simply manic at the moment. I am playing the save at 6:30 in the morning and then trying to do some diplo on my lunch break... 
Hopefully in a couple of weeks things will let up a bit but not looking too likely. Financial year end in the UK makes me a busy boy!
I have had correspondence with everyone recently and will see if I can get some free time one evening this week to update the thread.
I am quite happy with my position and with currency due in 4t and a GS next turn, I should be able to take the GNP lead comfortably.
Next priorities are to settle some more cities. I have 1 planned and an island to explore... better get to it!
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Ok quick Diplo update:
First Dreylin:
We exchanged some emails regarding techs and then had a large chat:
Quote:15:23 me: Hey Dreylin - you around?
7 minutes
15:31 Dreylin: sort-of
be back in a few mins
7 minutes
15:39 Dreylin: OK, here again
15:40 me: I just nipped out too - back now.
Dreylin: Morning
15:41 (or afternoon for you
me: Afternoon!
he he
Just wanted to see if you fancied ironing out a trade or 2?
15:42 Dreylin: gimme a sec
me: k
15:43 Dreylin: sorry, just had to echo-locate my cell phone
15:44 me: you mentioned compass - I know that Krill has mentioned that in the past.
you get good at that after a while don't you! 
Dreylin: first time for me, actually
usually it's my Wife's phone 
me: I am just a bit forgetful 
ha ha
15:45 Dreylin: Krill's been in a bit of a huff with me recently (at least he's not pestering me) so I'm not up on his plans
me: Ok - there comes a time though where we can't be doing 5 way trades...
15:46 Dreylin: indeed; we're there already I think
me: Me too
I think it is time to start to see who are the front runners and try and hamper them if possible - Krill is certainly going to be lapping up the war thats going on
15:47 Dreylin: yeah
me: settler - worker etc...
Dreylin: plus he's on one end of the world (like me) so only has to watch one side
15:48 me: Yep - I think Darrell has good relations with him too and is obviously being harrassed from the other side atm
Dreylin: Last I talked with Darrell he was sort-of expecting Krill to join in....
15:49 me: really - I'm not so sure...
Just the way darrell has talked lately
Dreylin: Well he's not the sort to let an opportunity pass by, but that doesn't affect us so much really
15:50 me: nah - I spose not - Krill can either exploit it by attacking or building loads of cities and getting the econmic edge
Dreylin: either way, I think we may want to start avoiding Krill somewhat
me: We are slightly distanced from it all too - you especially since I am your buffer
Dreylin: indeed
15:51 me: yeah - I agree
Dreylin: It was actually Darrell who suggested Compass to me
me: What is the land like out towards Krill? Have you scouted many of the islands?
Is Darrell still going currency?
Dreylin: Well you've been as far East as you can on our island
(I think so)
(last I heard)
15:52 there is a large-ish landmass SE of Const
me: yeah - hoping for circum nav if possible to get that far with WB the other way - even if it is down south
Dreylin: space for 3-4 cities, I think
me: Cool - thats a nice size.
Dreylin: doesn't go any further East than ours though
15:53 me: I have an island the the SE of The Oval that I am sending a scout and Galley to
Dreylin: few resources unfortunately ... had hoped for some Calendar happies
me: No idea what i will find...
Dreylin: Yeah, I saw that potential link
my guess i that it'll be pretty green
me: I have a spare calendar happy and spare wine for trading when we get there
hope so!
15:54 Dreylin: sadly it's the same spare calendar happy as mine....
me: with some fresh water! I have none!
thats irritating...
Dreylin: I've just got that one Lake & River next to Adrian
yeah, tell me about it!
me: I find it ironic that I started with Agri and haven't built a farm yet!
15:55 Dreylin: heh
Built my first Temple not long ago
(SPI cheap)
will give me a leg-up until HR
me: So we shouldn't really have a need to compete for city sites for a while so we should co-ordinate.
15:56 Yeah - I just got ivory for +1 and will have bud soon!
Dreylin: Miss was gifted this turn
me: Do you think Yaz will be willing to trade Monarchy through you?
thanks!
Dreylin: you should be able to spread on your next turn
Don't know
I sent him a note
15:57 but Alpha may not be right for him anymore
(but he can't take Curr - no pre-reqs!
me: Let me forward you the mails we exchanged after the whole horses debarkle.... just a min...
15:58 Monarchy will really make a difference to me since I am Philo and want to run specialists!
Dreylin: of course
15:59 me: I am seriously considering tanking it after currency
Dreylin: Oh, CoL came in at EOT; feel free to request it when you get the turn.
16:00 me: Great - thanks - currency will be done in 5t I think.
16:01 Dreylin: Hmmmm, Yaz seems a bit paranoid
me: Do you know if Yaz has an eta for monarchy and would you consider getting it from me instead?
16:02 Dreylin: but isn't it really his fault that Krill's benefiting right now?
me: The war must be hurting his teching
no - its not
Dreylin: Haven't heard an ETA from him yet
16:03 I would prefer to stick with my already-negotiated trade
(not least because I'm behind on trades with you already)
me: Alphabet has lost value so I would consider throwing that in as a sweetner but respect that you don't want to go back on your word to yaz
16:04 Dreylin: How is it not Yaz's fault that Krill's benefiting?
once Darrel was at war in one direction, Krill was bound to take advantage
16:07 me: Yes - sorry - it took me a moment to realise why you wrote that but I see now - I read your quote wrongly
16:08 Dreylin: Ah, np
thought that might be it
me: but isn't it really his fault that Krill's benefiting right now? is what you said and i read it the other way round
16:09 ie that it wasn't his fault
Dreylin: ah, fair enough
16:10 me: When i next get the game I'm going to check the timing on Monarchy - I think it would be sensible to only tech it though once yaz has it and you have got it in a trade so i'll be checking F4!
16:11 I am certainly interested in trading for Compass or calendar - when you decide what to do let me know and we can hash out a trade.
16:12 I think the key thing at the moment will be to freeze krill out a little.
Dreylin: yeah, but not too firmly, I think
16:13 You got IW from Krill yet?
brb
me: not yet
16:14 I have to dash too but will be back in 20mins...
16:16 Dreylin: Darn, I need IW to start on Compass
16:17 me: No trade clause.... gotta dash - back soon
16:18 Dreylin: yeah, but Krill & I have a trade arranged & you can broker
31 minutes
16:50 me: Phew - I'm back - I have yet to meet krill since I seem to be on some sort of wild goose chase to find his warrior... Hopefully in the next turn or 2 - I have asked about using darrell as a broker.
Dreylin: cool
16:51 me: you could do some trading via me and darrell... long way round for sure!
Dreylin: heh, yeah!
16:52 me: Where is the confu holy city?
Dreylin: Adrian
16:54 me: I think Krill has been working a lot lately so he should get back to later on tonight. We can see about getting you IW asap but it will need a couple of turns to change hands from Darrell to me to you.
I think ruff also has it... might be worng...
Dreylin: sure, well I'll spend some time accumulating gold
16:55 me: ok - I need to get on with some work. cya
Dreylin: 'k bye!
In the middle there I sent Dreylin the following exchange of emails between myself and Yaz:
Yaz Wrote:Hey,
So what you've decided to throw me under the bus and support Darrell? Must say I wasn't expecting that after our last chat and am quite disappointed. I guess everybody else in this game just wants to sit around playing it safe while Darrell and krill grow up to dominate the game.
Oh well guess I can't change you're mind, you've thrown your lot in with that group. Don't be surprised if I've declared war on you as it will be to see if that breaks up the ability to trade resources.
-Yaz
Square Leg Wrote:Hey Yaz,
Sorry for no reply for some time now - this is in part to being silly busy at work and having relatives over and also to try and think rationally about the situation in the game.
I feel like I owe you an explanation:
I have always had cordial relations with both Persia and America although I have found America to be a very generous trading partner securing some very beneficial trades already. I knew when offering the horses that your next move would be to declare on me to block the trade and so didn't really think that I would be aiding too much. I certainly don't plan on sending any galleys to your capital at this stage!
You will now surely have noticed that I am sending horses to Ruff to aid him in his war against you - I was surprised at first to see that this war had restarted - I thought you had settled your differences and didn't know that Ruff and Darrell were working together as you think that they are. I decided to send horses to Ruff because I don't really want to have a massive super power on my western flank and if you destroyed Ruff - regardless of what happens with Darrell - that is exactly what you will become. I saw that Osaka fell - nice work!
To finish really all I want to say is that you have been dealt a rough hand in this game so far and I don't think that I would have played it any differently. Good luck and perhaps we won't be at war for the rest of the game.
Cheers,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans
Yaz Wrote:Needless to say I'm not pleased. It's quite obvious you at least played both sides in the war against Darrell or else tried to set me up to fail and played me that way. Now without any contact you choose to support Ruff in a war as well. Considering he stabbed me in the back and you did practically the same thing I'm not in that great of mood from all this, especially the amount of lies I'm having to cut through.
Regardless my beef was not with you and still is not with you. I'd ask that in the interest of future peace you cut your ties with Ruff for the duration of this conflict as so far all you've managed to do is help Krill by hampering both Darrell and myself in a long dragged out conflict as well as putting him in a position to negotiate easily with Darrell in which he got very large concession in settling rights which will set him up very well for the rest of the game.
I don't think that is really anything else to say at the moment. I intend to offer Ruff support and have done so far in the shape of horses and 1 Chariot. He would like to loan a Galley from me too which we have been discussing:
Ruff Wrote:SL,
How are things? I notice that you are sending a galley my way ... does it hold any anti-yaz goodies? Yaz is bringing Immortals, axes and spears so I am mostly looking for spears in the short term. Also, can I borrow your copper if you get it hooked up shortly?
Cheers,
Ruff
Square Leg Wrote:Hi Ruff,
I wish I could lend you a copper but it is in the 2nd ring of Trent Bridge that has yet to pop its borders and with no culture there at the moment it may take some time. I will see what I can do about getting to you - Dreylin doesn't have his copper connected either otherwise I'd have suggested brokering it for you.
The galley is empty at the moment although I can possibly get a Dog or 2 to you in a few turns. They aren't ready to board the galley yet - it will return shortly. I shall see about whipping a couple to come over - I hope the chariot and the horses are proving to be useful. I have no access to spears though I'm afraid.
I haven't seen anything from the battle front - how bad is it?
All the best,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans
Ruff Wrote:SL,
Yaz is coming with units but he is taking his sweet time with it. I expect to have 3 immortals, 1 axe and 1 spear on my door set in 2 turns (ie able to attack in 3 - or 2 if he wants to attack with immortals first). The horses aren't being used at the moment - building archers - but I think the trade itself is having the desired mental disintegration effect on Yaz. Dog soldiers popping up in my capital would really dishearten him.
Krill just traded me IW and I can see iron - I am contemplating planting a city to grab it - that might be quicker than your border pop. The only problem is that I wouldn't have a unit to defend the iron city ... if you do bring some units to this war, could you drop one off near the horses? Please do not post about the IW.
Cheers,
Ruff
Ruff then replyed to his own mail:
Ruff Wrote:SL,
Here is a thought - you could lend me that galley to help keep Yaz off my off-island holding(s) ... is that a possibility?
BTW - did you see that hut on the Ivory Coast's North? I went and popped it - barb warrior.
Ruff
Square Leg Wrote:Hey Ruff,
Sure - you can borrow the galley but I have just turned it back towards home... How about I send it up to the Ivory coast and gift it to you at Tokyo?
So far I have lent you my Horses, a chariot and will send the Galley in return for your friendship and Archery. I was wondering if you would be interested in adding an Alphabet - Aesthetics trade to that?
I did see the hut when i sent to chariot your way - shame it wasn't compass or anything crazy like that!
Cheers,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans
Ruff Wrote:SL,
I would like to get that galley involved in blocking Yaz as soon as possible. I'll look at the save tonight and set you a pic with my preferred route.
Re Alphabet / Aesth trade - sure - will send that through too. I will need a no-trade clause for that tech. You are free to build any wonders associated with that tech. If you are interested Lit, I will need a no-trade as well as a no-build WW clause. I have also promised a delay of trade on Lit so I cannot trade it to you when I get it.
Ruff
That map didn't materialise so I caught up with Ruff in chat:
Quote:15:24 me: Hey Ruff - the save is with me at the moment although I won't be able to play it untill later on tonight. If in the meantime you want to send a map of where you want the galley to go, I'll follow those instructions. Otherwise I'll just send it in your general direction.
15:28 Ruff: sorry - meant to send you something last night
you can see my ex-copper right?
15:29 would like galley 1W of that copper as soon as possible
15:30 me: Ok - I'll send it there.
Ruff: thx
killed Yaz 3rd city last turn
15:31 will cost me your chariot
(sorry)
me: bless it - the story of how the Native Americans went down in a blaze of glory will be told for years to come!
What was the city called?
Ruff: pillaged 12g
15:32 will send you 6g when I can
me: 4t till I have currency...
Ruff: Susa (or something like that)
15:33 how many beakers is currency?
me: 400
on normal
Ruff: about 4 turns for me from lit
me: I don't work in quick!
15:34 Ruff: interested in a currency / aesth trade?
or alpha + currency for aesth + lit?
me: More interested in an Alphabet - Aesthetic trade...
What about the wonders at lit?
15:35 You said you wanted them before?
Still true
?
Ruff: would require a no-build on The GLib
me: What are the beakers... aesth is 300? what is lit?
15:37 Ruff: 200 (I think)
but I can actually survive ages without alpha
and those beaker numbers are mixed speed
have a meeting - think about it
15:38 me: So what about currency for aesth and lit with no build on Glib?
Ok - speak soon
This is where we are up to. Then i forgot to play the save due to extra curricular activities and so it is still with me! 
will play when I get home tonight!
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Correspondence with Krill
Quote:Hi mate,
just a quick heads up, I want to call in the beaker debt that you owe me, 225 beakers, on a trade for Currency. Not entire sure how to value Currency though - those 225 beakers are 50% of MC, and I'm not sure how stringent you want to be.
If I were to value them according to the mechanics in game as the beaker costs on the date of trading, the MC would have been worth 281 base, so 140 base beakers due to the 50% beaker cost that we gave it, due to the information exchange.
Currency would be worth 214 base, difference of 74 beakers compared to MC. Normally I value gold as worth 2, 2.5 beakers (because gold is going from one player to another, whereas beakers get duplicated), so I'd value those beakers as worth 37 gold. I'm not sure though, how you would value them, and lets face it, you are the one whose opinion matters as you hold Currency 
Krill
and the ensuing chat:
Quote:11:01 me: Hey Krill - day off today?
Krill: yeah
today and tomorrow
Take it not yours though
me: I'm at work...
11:02 didn't have time to play the save this morning either...
Krill: Could always give me your password and I'll play for you...
me: let me think....
Just reading your email actually about Currency
11:03 Krill: ok
me: Just to clarify - because I can things confused sometimes!
Krill: like that sentence...
11:04 me: you would like Currency from me and you would give me 37 gold to make up the difference?
yep!
Krill: that was what the calculation came out as.
adjusting all of hte techs for base beakers
and counting 2 beakers as one gold
11:05 me: ok - I would be willing to make this trade but I think it is only fair that we look at the beaker - gold ratio. Later on in the game I would think this to be totally fair (2-2.5) but perhaps 1.5 would be better for now?
1.5 is the best I can get gold to beakers with my academy...
Krill: point with gold, is that I lose the gold that I trade away, nd you gain it
11:06 so it's for ever 1 gold traded, it is a 2 gold swing
whereas beakers get duplicated
for free
11:07 me: ok - I see what you mean.
Did you propose anything in the game?
Krill: I don;t think so
11:08 but I was playing hte turn prety late at night
I think I offered you HBR though, as that came in last turn
me: cool - thanks.
I'd like to ask about OB...
11:09 My WB is stuck...
I am currently getting foreign TR in all my cities so you wouldn't be adding to my economy...
11:10 Krill: It's purely for circumnavigation
me: yes
can't lie!
11:11 Are you in the circum nav race?
Krill: I'm not
Question: where is Ruffs workboat, in your lands?
11:12 me: hmmm - can't remember exactly but near my cap if I recall correctly.
1/2 way thorugh
11:13 I take it you are errring on the side of no to my request for OB?
Krill: no actually
Ruff is also going for circumnavigation
11:14 how fair aahead he is of you, or behind, I don't know
me: How far has he gone in your direction?
Krill: he is probably 3-4 turns ahead of your
due to hte shape of the land
11:15 me: ok - I think I can beat him but it depends on the land i guess...
I have gone beyond Dreylin in the north on the other side
but met a dead end
11:16 I am hoping the route in the north will be enough to meet up with a route in the south
I know there is a gap between you and Dreylin
(impassable by WB or galley
)
11:17 Krill: yeah
seen that one
if you don't mind me asking, how far between that area, aand Ruffs' wb
me: I would be willing to waive the 37g for some information from you...
11:19 Krill: I'm ok with that
provided it isn't stuff like: I want your world map in word form
me: If you were to tell me how many tiles west of my current location I can go. I will then be able to work out if I can make the circum nav.
just west
11:20 Oh - and grant OB!
Krill: loading the save. Guess is about 10?
told a lie
18
11:21 from where you started
this turn
me: ok - I can't check right now dince i'm at work.... Itching to find out if that is enough!
11:22 consider the 37g waived and I'll offer currency and OB in game when I play
<snip> not game related
11:25 me: Right - I'll leave you to your day off and i'll get on with some work now!
catch ya soon
11:26 Krill: cya around mate
Krill got off lightly there with a good deal although I got the information I need... I THINK I can just make it for circum nav! With the land I have explored north of Dreylin and another 18 tiles east of my current WB location...
Of course I cannot check until I check the save later on today... grrr!
OB will also give me more cities for Trade routes but currently there are enough on the map that I have intercontinental in all my cities. no doubt some will default onto france now though. 
Next up was Dreylin. I sent him this:
Square Leg Wrote:Hi Dreylin,
I met Krill last turn meaning I have the full set! Yay!
I haven't heard from yaz yet regarding what is going on with the trades. Will he be getting writing from me do you know or researching it himself?
I would also be keen on getting a settler from you if that is possible? Since Alphabet has been traded around a bit now I would settle for 1 settler for Alphabet. Would that be of interest?
I notice that you ep's are racking up on me now - can you see into my cities yet? Must be able to see research? Now that you have met Ruff - could you please not send any more my way? I'd rather not have you peeking into my cities and criticising my play in your thread! ha ha - no - It's more that I lose visibility on your graphs if you send much more.
All the best,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans
and he replied with this:
Dreylin Wrote:Hey SL,
Congrats on reaching the full set!
I met Ruff & Darrell a few turns ago, but still have Yaz and Krill to finish off the group. I did ping Yaz yesterday about your note; he said that the deal was a go, and that you should expect to see a request for Writing once you get the game.
As far as EPs go, I have stopped sending them against you now and am now working on getting Ruff & Darrell's graphs. I do have visibility on a couple of your cities, since both Buddhism and active trade routes give a discount (I think). I shouldn't worry about my critiquing your builds; I'm sure there's enough weed going on on my part!
Your Alphabet - Settler offer certainly is intriguing. Give me another turn or so to consider the offer and review my plans and in-game builds, but I think there's a reasonable chance I'll accept.
BTW, I gather that Darrell has just completed Maths, so by the time the game has gone around again I should have it as well. If you could offer me Currency on your turn, it would be most appreciated.
Cheers,
Dreylin.
I need to focus on getting some cities down now and grwoing my capital to so that it can run a shed load of specialists. I just whipped a settler so it is at size 3 atm but the 3 tiles it is working are Pigs (6f) and 2 x clams (5f).
I'd like to get the happy cap up to 9 so that i can run 6 specialists. not sure weather to adopt caste or not. Might just go for a mixed pool and deal with having random GP's - I want GE asap though for Pyramids and REP. I am building a forge in The Oval - will need whipping and will then run an engineer for 20t... urgh that is a long time... maybe sneak in 2 scientists for a few turns to speed it up and risk another GS... hmm... maybe not. can't decide.
Question about GP's:
Does each scientist hired count as a seperate source when figuring out the %age chance of a GP?
Basically - I can run 2 scientist and 1 engineer at size 4 for 1f defecit. That nets me 18gpp. I need 120gpp for my next GP after already generating a GS.
I just put a quick spreadsheet together and the following is true:
1 Eng gives 120 gpp on T20 with 100% chance of Engineer
1 Eng and 2 Sci for 1t gives 120 gpp on T18 with 90% of Engineer
1 Eng and 2 Sci for 2t gives 120 gpp on T16 with 80% of Engineer
1 Eng and 2 Sci for 3t gives 120 gpp on T14 with 70% of Engineer
1 Eng and 2 Sci for 4t gives 120 gpp on T12 with 60% of Engineer
1 Eng and 2 Sci for 5t gives 120 gpp on T10 with 50% of Engineer
1 Eng and 2 Sci for 6t gives 120 gpp on T8 with 40% of Engineer
Hmm... Something to mull over.
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Square Leg Wrote:Does each scientist hired count as a seperate source when figuring out the %age chance of a GP?
The concept of "sources" was nixed in one of the expansions or patches. The Great Person chance is now simply equal to the proportion of points of each type. Good news for National Epic artist haters.
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T-hawk Wrote:The concept of "sources" was nixed in one of the expansions or patches. The Great Person chance is now simply equal to the proportion of points of each type. Good news for National Epic artist haters.
Thanks T-Hawk - you are my Glossary of terms in this thread!
So my calculations above should be pretty accurate then since that is the formula is used in my excel.
I don't know if I need take the risk or not... 
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I keep playing the turn at early o'clock in the morning - taking screen shots and then not sending them to my work PC or putting them on a USB stick.  I will try and do this as soon as posisble!
I did take a shot of the techs screen under f4 today and realised that there was nothing that anyone could or couldn't trade to me yet everyone wanted at least something from me! Wow - I am the tech leader!!! 
My cities (only have 4.... ) are all growing and building forges (except Headingly which is too small). There will need to be a round of whipping to complete them all in a few turns time.
The forge is going to be an excellent build on this map since whipping is so important. Getting 25% more from your whips is nice! Also - I do intend on converting to OR at some point in the near future so that will be 50% for buildings!
On the subject of civic's - I will soon have to change my current set up but I'm unsure when to do so... I need to change to Budhism before adopting OR and I need Monarchy to come in before adopting HR. Caste is available but I need slavery too much at the moment so isn't that interesting.
So 2 revolts coming up in the not too distant future! Dreylin still needs to send me another missionary. Have to check when we agreed he'd send it...
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