Need to dig out my sim after Christmas break and actually produce some numbers. In the meantime, here's my first draft list.
I think I'm in favour of going with just a series title ("Civilization" or "Final Fantasy") where there have been lots differentiated only by number. Based on that, I'd suggest just "Civilization" for the capital (although if we're going to be specific, definitely Civ IV). I don't know how you want to handle later cities: a simple way to start would be for all four of us to provide a list, order it how they like and rotate in order of seniority (OH-FT-THH-ST). As we come across duplicates, or particular names stand out for a particular location (for example, naval games for coastal cities), then it's OH's game, so his choice. Any particularly good suggestions by lurkers could also be considered!
These are in roughly chronological order of when I played them. I've skipped Civilization itself. Overlaps with OH are marked with a '*'. Where there are multiple games in a series, I've put my favourite first. With hindsight, I have spent a terrifying amount of my life playing games. I though this would be longer, actually, but a lot are parts of series. I could probably drag more, kicking and screaming, out of the depths of memory, but these are the ones I either still have or particularly remember. Some names are too long, of course, for civ cities.
Elite
Silent Service
Project: Stealth Fighter
Gunship
Way of the Exploding Fist
Command and Conquer (Tiberium Dawn) / Tiberium Sun
Doom / Heretic / Quake
Alien Crossfire / Alpha Centauri
Red Alert
Scorched Earth / Panzer General 3D
Occarina of Time
Goldeneye
Perfect Dark
Final Fantasy
Grandia
Vagrant Story
Fragile Allegiance
Pirates!
Spyro the Dragon
Red Dead Redemption
Lego Star Wars
*Wesnoth
Baldur's Gate
Persona
Dragon Age
Ni no Kuni
*Enemy Within / Enemy Unknown
*Master of Orion
*FTL
All meaningless without a map, of course .
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
My list is going to be hard to put in chronological order, but I'll do my best.
Logical Journey of the Zoombinis
SimCity 2000
Deimos Rising
Otto Matic
Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings
Myst
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds
Age of Empires III
Civilization IV
TripleA
Blitzkrieg
Call of Duty II
Starcraft
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Hearts of Iron III
Napoleon: Total War
Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Mass Effect
Ultimate General: Gettysburg
(January 15th, 2018, 16:51)shallow_thought Wrote: Anyone else read GJ's thread from PB37 - specifically his view on how broken PRO is?
Yup. It's a good read IIRC, but some of the analysis might be fueled by frustration after having faced PRO neighbors in multiple games (I think in PB18 he also had a long sluggish war against one). All in all, I think PRO is a solid, probably above average, trait. (Disclaimer: I haven't bothered studying the current RtR mod change list as it's not yet confirmed, which version we are playing - my views might be outdated)
Well we didn't enjoy fighting Mardoc's PRO longbows much in PB18, but I don't understand why Joey thinks the city garrison bonus is in a different category from the other things that boost traits. I've read his explanations, but it just didn't make sense to me (and I'm not dumb enough to ask him questions) so if anyone wants to explain feel free.
That said, PRO is a very good trait and I'd be happy to roll it.
I used the wait for the map to play a random SPI culture game at Prince on a huge map (on a toroid Totestra ringworld map, which is less fun to play than you'd think - I never even met some of the other civs, the map was impossible to click on and steamrollering the neighbours who couldn't cope with all the forests was way too easy).
It did give me a few new thoughts on my specialist/cottage ramblings from earlier in the thread though. Probably not news to anyone who's thought this through a bit:
- As shallow_thought noted we're unlikely to wait for Biology (TBS continuing on through the tech tree in PB18 out is probably an outlier.)
- Even with Biology farms a cottage city will produce culture faster than a specialist city if you don't count the GA points.
- Folding the benefit from Great Artist points into the calculations is a little misleading - it's probably quicker to get all our artists from other cities and have a core of cottaged cities which can pump culture at a higher rate. It just feels less efficient to be generating large amounts of culture in the artist cities that we aren't planning to make legendary.
- The specialist city does however have the advantage that by alternating workshop and farm improvements you can get necessary infrastructure built more quickly. The cottage cities may need to workshop or mine food tiles or keep forests to chop to get the Cathedrals built.
- Cottaged cities become useless when the slider turns on, but having backup plans isn't a bad idea. If we have an option to get a fourth city up to 18k culture quickly then eight artists can bomb it legendary...
Anyway these were the three approaches I tried, the lie of the land didn't really make for a great cottage-city, but the hills meant my capital kept up on building the infrastructure. It pumped 1000cpt at the end:
Running nine specialists here, (and borrowing a couple of cottages too because of how powerful they were). This was all workshops when building things and all farms when growing.
A weird hybrid that I only used because it had high pop and could build things quickly, especially with switching farms to workshops and back.
Another thing that sprang to mind was that the religion to push would depend on the cathedral multiplier resources we have access to:
Buddhist (copper)
Christian (stone)
Confucian (copper)
Hindu (marble)
Judaism (stone)
Taoism (copper)
And while I'm obsessing over culture the best Civs to go for seem to be:
Ethiopia - Monument replacement gives +25% culture
China - Theatre replacement gives +25% culture
Rome - Market replacement gives +35% GPP
Arabia - Cheap double-culture libraries (getting a bit tenuous I know)
And we should avoid:
Byzantium - Theatre replacement has no artist slots
Here are the choices we rolled for you - when you've decided whether to keep the civ or reroll it, and which (if either) of the leaders you want to keep, post the inforrmation here to let us know.
Options:
Bismarck (Exp/Ind)
Wang Kon (Fin/Pro)
Persia
The essential form of the BFC may be relied upon, though we might still make superficial changes e.g. to whether the trees are deciduous, conifers, or snowy, and we might imaginably even rotate the whole thing 90 degrees or something since the surrounding terrain is still being finalized. The corner tiles may yet change, and the fog is a fabric of lies, but at least you've got your start!
Also, in case it's not obvious due to the resource icon partly blocking the yield icons, note that your elephants live in a forest.
Thanks Ref and team maplurker! This is really happening!
First things we thought in chat were:
CIV:
- Persia has Agriculture, which this start needs.
- Persia has Hunting - which camps the Elephants!
- Camps need Animal Husbandry in RTR
- Immortal is useful against AIs but not humans
- RTR has lower cost Archery so it might be useful - when we find out where our copper is then we'll know how useful.
- We'll probably only build a handful of Apothecaries, so meh.
- How many Agri-civs will be in the pot if we return Persia?
LEADERS:
- Yay PRO (boost turns 40-80, the turns that Fintourist really enjoys milking for marginal gains)
- Yay EXP (boost the initial turns, but with the plains hill and the ivory it only gives one turn faster for the initial worker.)
- Boo IND (wonders, in a 25-player game? ),
- Boo FIN (that lovely river negates most of it's usefulness )
We'll probably think a little longer, and do some more simming (thanks shallow_thought for the sandbox!), and create ridiculously detailed micro spreadsheets (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...edit#gid=0 - not yet detailed) before throwing the leaders back and keeping the civ... [edit: and I didn't even mention Fintourist's amazing spreadsheet showing the probability that we get a better civ if we throw Persia back! Possibly because I don't fully understand it...]
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![[Image: QStart.JPG]](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9Me1HZaN9c0/WmEW6jM4NtI/AAAAAAAAEjk/4avOpnoOauMOzoHMHJOB8vg8M1wLcfw6QCLcBGAs/s1600/QStart.JPG)
), 
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