Japper and Cornflakes' team thread

[Japper007]

It looks like CMF is blocking path to the city state. What is your plan? Our DoF expires in about 5-8 turns (I think)

The "plan" is pretty simple, I'm going to show him that not moving those Warriors will be a very bad idea, I have two Oligarchy boosted Ngao and 4 Archers in the area. I'm pretty sure that'd be enough to one-turn both of those if it comes to that, or at least enough to make Chev consider the possibility of losing them and so forcing him to retreat. I'm also moving an Archer around to see if he also blocks the chokepoint on their side (doubtfull, it'd mean half his military tied up blocking the CS), otherwise I just move around to the other side.

I'll also drop the city at the stones in a few turns, I could use it's borders to force him out of the no mans land and into Nan Madol's borders, which means he is at the wims of the AI's bizzare movements, not a situation any player wants to be in...

[Cornflakes]

I sent Sullla a request for 200 last turn. He rejected the offer but replied with 1 for 1. I accepted. Let's see if he re-offers the gold next turn?

I was thinking some more about the logistics when we do attack W/CMF. We might as well make use of your army too, but I'm concerned about traffic jam trying to maneuver to civs worth of military through that straight. I'm thinking now that it would be best for me to completely ignore the two cities on the straight, and push right on past with my GG boosted mobility. Once I'm out of the way, you can follow with your army and lay siege to those 2 cities on the straight.

I was also pondering the distribution of the cities. Maybe it would be better to transfer everything that we capture to you? Especially if you are more inclined to go with a peaceful tech route it might be for the best that we concentrate everything in your nation rather than spreading it out between the two of us.

[Japper007]

Bingo! Chevalier isn't blocking off the entire CS, I can just move around him, especially with my faster Ngao in woodlands.



Double Bingo, Stone city picks up a crab as well, eventually



I'm also just gonna post this for smug I-told-you-so-ness :

[Japper007]

I was thinking some more about the logistics when we do attack W/CMF. We might as well make use of your army too, but I'm concerned about traffic jam trying to maneuver to civs worth of military through that straight. I'm thinking now that it would be best for me to completely ignore the two cities on the straight, and push right on past with my GG boosted mobility. Once I'm out of the way, you can follow with your army and lay siege to those 2 cities on the straight.

I was also pondering the distribution of the cities. Maybe it would be better to transfer everything that we capture to you? Especially if you are more inclined to go with a peaceful tech route it might be for the best that we concentrate everything in your nation rather than spreading it out between the two of us.

I was expecting to help yes, I don't have a large army to swing around (4 Xbow, 4 Ngao with upgrades) but I won't have to hold our western flank if we swing another DoF with SingaSulla. I could pull a more garrison duty and stay behind to pick on stragglers and besiege cities without defenders, as you said.

I worry those cities would be too far from my core and therefore hard to manage economically with the walking times on Builders alone. Also unless we know for sure we can run fully over Woden and Chevalier (a pretty tall order) we might be better of razing and resettling.

[Cornflakes]

A deeper dive into how I'm going to recruit the next GGeneral ...

   

I currently have a slight lead in the race for the next GGeneral, however Woden will catch up and pass me in about 10 turns. Therefore I will definitely need to take additional measures to secure the general. Woden has to know that I only have 1 encampment and can therefore only do 1 project at a time. My concern is that Woden can easily match me project-for-project and steal the general. Woden has multiple encampments and can therefore complete multiple simultaneous projects, which I simply can't match. I could potentially dump the walls overflow into another project, but I really need a 5-charge builder to chop more in the north. I could slow build a 2nd project, but I don't think Woden would let me get away with that. Therefore I will have to be more creative/sneaky/lucky and use a combination of project + faith patronage. 

Looking further into the GPP points generated by a project ... the CFC formula thread is located here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/f...ad.600534/

Working some algebra on the Cost and GPP formulas results in the following relationship:

P = C/5 + 5
Where:
C = "Cost of the project" [as shown on the UI], and
P = "Expected number of great person points generated"

This is not useful in-and-of itself for long-term forward planning [since that would require first calculating the future cost of the project], but it does make it much easier to quickly determine the number of a point that a project will generate RIGHT NOW by just looking at the cost of the project on the UI tooltip, dividing by 5 and adding 5. My assumption would be that the resulting P would be truncated.

In my current case, the GGeneral project I have in progress costs 98, so the expected GPP yield is calculated at 24.6, and truncated to 24.

   

This is the current GGeneral project in progress, 4 turns left to completion unless I swap off for a bit and delay completion. Also you can see my faith accumulated so far or 229 (+7.4/turn). The Faith patronage formula is 150 + 10*[remaining points]. My faith accumulation is almost enough for 8 points currently, increasing by about 3/4 of a point per turn. I need to find the point where I can complete the project and immediately patron(ate?) on the following turn.

My current GGeneral points: 44 (+3/turn) ... adding in the value of the project I'm at 68. Add in the current 8 points of patronage and I'm at 76, or 44 points remaining. The combined natural points + faith accumulation is earning 3.75 point/turn, or still 12 turns from the GGeneral ... so 12 turns ... in 12 turns my faith accumulation will be 318, or enough for 16 points. In 12 turns, Woden will have just surpassed me and will be a couple points ahead. 1 project from Woden then would fall slightly short of sniping the GGeneral.

So the big question: Will Woden build 2 encampment projects to secure the next GGeneral? If yes, would I even have a shot a contesting it if I build 2 projects? Let's say a 2nd project from me earns the same number of points (24) ... how soon would I recruit him?

44 + 24 + 24 = 92 ... 4 turns to complete the current project is another 12 from natural generation ... 92 + 12 = 104 ... I would not have enough faith at this point to patronize the last 16 points, but the couple of turns required to build the project would make up the difference. The more I think about this, the more it feels like I need to run that 2nd project. The trade-off is about 100 out of the capital which I could otherwise dump into military.

100 would get me 2 heavy chariots (with the +50% policy in place). Production out of the city up north will already get me enough Heavy Chariots that gold will be the limiting factor in the unit upgrades. Therefore and additional 2 will not be of much value. I could build a ram or siege tower, but I already have one of those slotted to build with overflow from chops. Therefore I think the production can best be used to make more certain that I secure the GGeneral

[Cornflakes]

Update on timing.....

Science: Machinery complete in 6, Stirrups +9 = 15 ... add in Military Engineering +8 for 24 turns
Culture: Feudalism in 2, Military Training + 4, Mercenaries +9 = 15 ... However the loss of culture from the city state will set me back somewhat (nearly 15%), probably a total of 2 turns.
GGeneral: due to double encampment project, timeline is approximately 9 turns ... was going to fall in right on schedule, oh well, better early than fighting for the enemy   

Since culture is lagging science, I'm thinking it makes sense to slot in Military Engineering first so that I can dump some chop overflow into Domrey rather than battering ram. Domrey are expensive though, so maybe it doesn't make sense. 

Advantages of Domrey ... heavy hitter, at 50 STR with the GGeneral. 2 should be sufficient to take down walls. Movement can be boosted by GGeneral. Can bombard naval units. CMF surely has a decent amount of current power in naval units, and will try to re-capture coastal cities with his navy. 

Disadvantages of Domrey (aka advantages of Rams) ... rams don't occupy a tile, which will be more important in the jammed-up straight. Rams can spend their movement to get adjacent to a city, and then even if they don't have any movement points left a knight can still move onto the tile and attack. Rams are effective for any number of attackers, and healthy knights can be rotated in on subsequent turns. Domrey have a weakness in that they present a high-value target to attack that also is weaker. If CMF hits a knight that is guarding the ram, I can just swap it with another healthy knight. If the Domrey is damaged I have to promote or pause to heal.

I think it makes sense to still bring a ram even if I do subsequently build Domrey. The Ram will help in the tight quarters of the straight, allowing me to make use of every tile with a Knight or Crossbow. Once we break through, Domrey will have additional value through their boosted movement beyond where there is more room to maneuver.

[Japper007]

I declared war on Nan Madol on my turn. Had the chance to kill some stragglers already! CMF responded to my presence by moving a warrior through NM to the other side but it looks like he has only two Warriors there so he won't be able to stop me short of declaring war (4 points of access for me, he'll only be able to block two). If he does declare without withdrawing first he'd be an idiot, I have archers enough to kill both of his Warriors the turn he does...

[Cornflakes]

Units can be upgraded inside the territory of Suzerained CS, so CMF could potentially upgrade those into Swords. Not that it would necessarily change much, just something to be aware of (and he couldn't attack on the same turn they were upgraded so you'd still get a chance to either first strike or maneuver).

[Japper007]

Units can be upgraded inside the territory of Suzerained CS, so CMF could potentially upgrade those into Swords. Not that it would necessarily change much, just something to be aware of (and he couldn't attack on the same turn they were upgraded so you'd still get a chance to either first strike or maneuver).

That would indeed not change much, I'm in Oligarchy and my Ngao are slightly better as well as with archers in support. He'd just be throwing away gold and his men's lives then.

BTW you are now at war with NM too ofc, so feel free to take some attacks of oppertunity on it's roving units near your borders, for the XP if nothing else

[Cornflakes]

Interesting times, to say the least!

I took out the Nan Madol's archer. CMF upgraded one sword (that we can see) and presumably the other. He has an archer incoming, which is a bad idea unless there is more to follow ... thus I expect to see more troops on the horizon. Nan Madol has pushed CMF's culture above 40 which is 10% higher than Rome (who should still have a solid lead over anyone except maybe Russia at this point in the game) so Nan Madol is a great prize for CMF to try keeping alive.

If CMF does advance I actually really like the way this is headed. I would like nothing better than to draw in CMF's troops out to fight far from home. With 2 more archers and a heavy chariot completing by the end of the DoF, and walls at capital and northern city (and thick jungle in between) I should have enough power to hold off CMF if he goes for the kill ASAP. If CMF tries for the southern un-walled city first, I will not put up too much of a fight trying to hold it. I'll snipe what units I can out on the plain, but use that as a crumple zone to buy time to complete Mercenaries for the discounted upgrades.