DEATH Realm

[Nelphine]

Wait, the amount drained is based on the amount of mana the enemy wizard has.

So every drain you do, reduces how much the other drains are going to do. More you drain in one turn, the less effective the spell is.

Won't be a big difference, but it will add up especially on the higher skill levels.

For instance, the 600 level. First cast drains 756. That means the AI has (756-180)/0.03 = 19200 mana. The next cast 'only' drains 733. Next one then does 701. Next one 680. Next one 660. Last one 640.

Total drained is only 4170. Which is less than 4 skill gained (around 3.4 skill to be exact).

So you've spent an entire turn to gain skill that will take 176 turns to be profitable. The ai still has over 15000 mana, so you haven't done almost anything to bother the AI combat ability. If the AI has 600 skill, you can assume that the AI has a power income of at least 3000, plus 40% for cheating bonus is 4200. They'll spend 600 in Overland spells, so their net income is 3600. They'll have ~400 mana maintenance, reducing to 3200. So IF you do that every turn you've turned their net mana income to -970. It will take you 20 turns of doing this to reduce their mana to income, except the drains will continue getting weaker each turn, so it will be more like 30 turns. And they will have a gold income of at least 1000, so when they get too low they use alchemy to offset your attacks. So now that doubles how long it takes to reduce them to 0. Call it 60 turns. 5 years of casting nothing but drain power. And while you did NOTHING ELSE, they continued summoning and cursing and buffing just as much as always.

This is NOT an economic weapon.

[Seravy]

Total drained is only 4170. Which is less than 4 skill gained (around 3.4 skill to be exact).

That would be true if Amplifying Towers didn't exist. Assuming 200 of the initial 600 skill is from those, you only need 800/ skill so you gain 5+.

It's true that you lose a few hundred points compared to my calculations but that's not a relevant amount at 3000+ and only applies within a single turn. Next turn the AI refills their mana reserves.

So you've spent an entire turn to gain skill that will take 176 turns to be profitable. The ai still has over 15000 mana, so you haven't done almost anything to bother the AI combat ability.

This isn't about either of these, at least that's not what makes me worried.
If the AI loses more MP a turn than what they produce, they are forced to spend 0 on RP and SP and eventually even use Alchemy to convert their gold to refill the depleting reserves.
So while nothing seems to happen on the surface, behind the scenes the AI is unable to research spells at a reasonable speed, unable to raise their skill, and might even lose some of their city economy.

I might be overly worried though, I guess players can already do that through combat - but the accessibility is different - people won't spend hours on draning the AI's mana by sending invisible units to battles and force it to cast spells, nor do they have infinite units to use for this. Drain Power on the other hand takes no effort and no resources other than your overland casting skill.

Probably my greatest worry is Spellweaver - as it allows the spell to accelerate skill growth 50% faster on top of the AI being drained 50% more resources. So ultimately it multiplies its own effect.

[teelaurila]

Drain Power on the other hand takes no effort and no resources other than your overland casting skill.

But this is the single most important resource there is, is it not? As you say yourself: "you got better things to cast".

The percentage component is interesting in the sense that it makes this spell hugely more potent at high difficulty where the AI indeed routinely has >10 000 mana. But at higher difficulty you also need to carefully weigh in that you cast the right things with the overland skill you got. And I wouldn't think this is better than summons in any case except when you can't cast reasonable summons (spell blast, fairy ring(?)). (Or mono-death warlord (omniscient channeler?) maybe, but eh.)

On another calculation, if you got 2000 power income, and can drain ~2000 a turn (taking down Nelphine's numbers to be less to-the-hilt) you still more than doubled your skill growth rate. Which over time should build up.

[Nelphine]

Right, point about amp towers is totally valid. Still, takes 110 turns to be profitable.

I think that sacrificing ALL your summons/buffs/curses etc, in order to prevent your opponent from increasing its skill or research, but still allowing them to cast overland, is fine.

Spellweaver: I already think the +50% is overpowered. However, I think the AI overland casting skill cost is overpowered. Since you don't agree on the second, it's understandable you don't agree on the first.

I wouldn't worry about the exact combination of spellweavwrr and drain power. Their are much bigger issues and combinations. That's just something that people great with death curses can learn to use as a neat combo for experienced players. Not gamebreaking.

[Seravy]

All right, I guess I'll leave it unchanged then.

[zitro1987]

Ok, my thoughts on the new death topics:

Wrack: I normally make a slightly different version of 'caster of magic' for my enjoyment and one of the things I did for a long time is making wrack have -1 to resist but 45-50 mana cost. So I already played with the -1 to resist and it just feels right. '40 mana' might be ok, but 41 to prevent demons casting it might be better.

Wave of Dispair - I think it's not an overpowered spell and in many cases it can be rather mediocre. It's a conditional spell that when 'the planets align', it's outstanding. I like it the way it is.

Drain Power - I see the concern when your wizard already has a ton of skill, but I may be inclined to summon death knights, demon lords, and cast the spell that kills units across the globe. Anyways, a straight '250' mana is a decent solution, though maintaining the original formula and capping it at 400 might work best to keep it relevant later in game.

[Seravy]

Finished the Death "lizardmen' game where I was not using lizardmen at all.

Life Drain - Worked fairly well without being too powerful, but definitely felt valuable for the early game. The change helped.
Reaper Slash - rarely used this one this game but when I did, it worked about the same as before (we reduced it by less than 10% in strength so that about what I expected).
Wrack - There was a time when this proved valuable and allowed me to win battles I otherwise couldn't have. Probably would have had a similar outcome regardless of the save modifier change but it definitely made the spell better.
Wave of Despair - Still very powerful for what it was meant to do (kill smaller enemy groups and 1-3 very powerful units) while being pretty useless against larger stacks of 7-9 units so the change made it actually work as it should have been from the beginning.
Warp Node - My Myrran enemy was Astrologer with Seismic Mastery and Trolls so this wiped out like half their power base if not more. Otherwise it wouldn't have been this overpowered.
Massacre - Much more powerful than Wave of Despair and even Flame Strike, but it is meant to be so I'm fine with that. It's on par with Apocalypse, maybe even better than that, but since it can't bypass resistance through luck, that's ok.
Demon Lord - These are very absolutely unstoppable even compared to very rares. I could walk into large enemy stacks or cities, hit auto and get away with it using stacks of 2 Demon Lords, not 9. I think there are problems with this unit. Basically it's a flying ranged creature with a strong ranged attack and lots of ammo - by far the best in this category, even stronger than Djinn or Efreet. On top of that it's immune to every spell in the game except Doom Bolt, Lightning Bolt and Warp Lightning, and is durable enough to survive 2-3 of those. If that still wasn't enough, it heals itself for an absurd amount of health each turn because its attack is life stealing and if something does manage to engage it in melee despite the flight and 4 movement, it has to even roll against a -3 fear effect. But it doesn't end here - through summoning demons, it automatically comes with its own Black Prayer to boost these effects, and even a Terror or Darkness or whatever else on top of that. And then it even produces power but honestly that's the least of the problem. Oh did I mention it even does Doom Bolts? 3 of them can kill any enemy hero regardless of defense and resistance! Wait, there is even more, the summons act like bait and divert enemy spells and attacks from the Demon Lord itself...
If I had to sum it up, the unit acts like a Shadow Demon with the firepower of a Colossus and the Magic resilience of a Sky Drake but also the spellcasting output of about 3 Efreets. Sure you have to pay more than for any other very rare but it eats any other very rare for breakfast except maybe Colossus and Sky Drake.

Overall I think Demon Lords need to be revised, the other spells felt about right. In fact I have beaten the Myrran wizard in about an hour using, what, 8-10 Demon Lords total in groups of 2? Normally this part of the game takes half a day, sure I was slightly ahead but not by this much. Taking out the wizards on Arcanus who had a quarter of my power left and only their last 2-3 cities took way longer...

[Nelphine]

Demon lords are iconic. They do exactly what they are supposed to do. I'd much rather bring other things up in power, not reduce the demon Lord. Also, it's meant to be the strongest very rare, so I'd be fine increasing its cost instead of other changes. Finally, the Ai controlled demon Lord aren't so bad - I'd much rather teach the AI to fight it the way the human rights them.

I'd REALLY like very rares to be scary in groups of 2-4 and bring their prices back up. If the demon Lord can do that, then use it as the baseline, don't think of it as an outlier.


Also, honestly, anything that is affected by its cause fear OR its lifestealing shouldn't be relevant when you have very rares. Your killing things very rares SHOULD sneeze at.

[Seravy]

I'd much rather teach the AI to fight it the way the human rights them.

How? Unless you play Chaos your spells won't hurt it (even then they won't as Hadriex demonstrated - Chaos AI is baited into Disintegrating the demons and I CAN'T fix that as picking that is a legit good move in far too many other cases). Your very rare creatures won't be there because you aren't human to see where your opponent plans to attack using their Demon Lords. And your rare or weaker thngs just aren't strong enough to overcome the armor, life drain and damage output all in one.

The Demon Lord is pretty much immune to everything and requires a complex solution, as nothing can kill it on its own. (Yes it can if combined with other spells but the AI can't do that except a few very special cases the DL is immune to anyway)

Sky Drake? Nah, Demon Lord has equal stats in melee, so at best it's a tie.
Other very rares? Nah, the lord kills them from range because it has a stronger ranged attack plus a free Doom Bolt.
Fire Bolt, Ice Bolt, Flame Strike, any Sorcery or Death spell? Immune.
Web, Crack's Call? Immune. (not really but ANY Death player will put Wraith Form on it after they see the first web)
Entangle? Doesn't matter, it's strong enough even if caught in melee.
Call Lightning? Nah you can't drag the combat out that long.
Annihilate? 20% success rate if Black Prayer, but Demons will likely absorb it as they have a 80-100% chance to die. Heck, 10%, there will be Darkness.
Disintegrate? Immune.
Apocalypse? Mass targeting spell, the AI won't use for only 1-2 Demon Lords and that many is enough to win most battles.
Exorcise, Holy Word, Banish, Creature Binding, Stasis? Nah, 15 resistance says no.
Star Fires, Lightning Bolt, Doom Bolt, War Lightning? These damage it but with Life Steal the DL will gain too much health and it has enough offense to end the battle before you could kill it.

The only thing I can imagine in the game that beats a Demon Lord is... Spell Ward+Spell of Mastery. But Death is strong vs Sorcery up until the late game so that won't happen.

I'd REALLY like very rares to be scary in groups of 2-4 and bring their prices back up. If the demon Lord can do that, then use it as the baseline, don't think of it as an outlier.

That's not going to happen. That would make everything else obsolete - and I don't mean units, I mean spells. Very rare spells.

Oh cool he has Armageddon and Massacre, isn't that cute,but I have 3 Demon Lords so I won because they only have 175 Efreets but not 3 Great Drakes.
No thx I rather not have the game turn into that.


Anyway, my problem is the Demon Lord simply offers too much in one package. It has the raw stats of other top tier very rares, plus it has the best defensive and offensive abilities in the game and summoning.


Compare to a Colossus :
+3 Hit : same
25 Melee : same
25 Ranged : 5 less on Demon Lord but it is magic so no ranged penalty = same
37 Health : 2 less on Demon Lord is pretty much the same
17 resistance : 2 less on Demon Lord but still immune to everything anyway so (almost) same

So you get a Colossus, fine. (It's probably the best very rare in the game after the DL)
But then you get on top of this :
-double ammo
-a Doom Bolt
-3 summons that also fly but are immune to missiles
-and cast spells for 40-120 MP or have an instant death attack
-immunity to missiles
-immunity to fire
-Immunity to cold
-immunity to illusions (most Sorcery spells)
-Immunity to weapons
-Fear
-Life steal to gain life faster than by regeneration


Imagine if Colossus came with Regeneration and 8 ammo and could summon 3 giant spiders on turn 1. This is about that crazy.

I think the greatest problem is we buffed its stats to match other very rares, but did nothing to the abilities. So it ended up unbeatable - brute force no longer works, but it has enough extras so other tactics don't either.

Honestly I'm not sure how we could even make it more balanced, if at all, but we should think through all 5 realms and make sure each of them has at least one way to deal with Demon Lords. It doesn't have to be a "counter" to them, just a way that allows the AI to kill a few of your attacking 9 Demon Lord stack before losing their city. Or defend against 1-3 if they have combat very rares and a full, good garrison.
Because that's pretty much how I define a "best" very rare creature, anything more than that is just a "you win the game" button. Death isn't a realm designed for "unbeatable in the late game" heck even Sorcery isn't anymore, it's just very strong there.

[zitro1987]

Demon Lord doesn't need 8 shots. Bring down the shots to 4, acting as a minor limitation to unit (eventually forcing it to do melee)