Epic One - Veovim's Report

[Veovim]

This is my first report, so I'm very open to suggestions about how it could be better. I broke it into two parts (a short summary, and the full log I created), and tried to add enough pictures to give somewhat of an idea of how things went. I also linked all the pictures in thumbnail form for anyone who might have a less than speedy connection. If anyone finds any of this helpful and/or distracting (e.g. moving back and forth between the reports and pictures), please let me know. I think that's everything I wanted to say, so on with the report!

Edit: I've looked over a few other reports, and it looks like my reporting leaves a lot to be desired. With that in mind, I'd just like to re-emphasize my openness to suggestions.

[Veovim]

I started off with what were probably some research decisions--neglecting military techs because they were more expensive, which led to me losing an early war (and one of my cities) with Genghis. Monty tried to cash in, and so did some barbs that settled in my south, but I managed to hold them both off, and eventually built enough military to conquer the barb cities and finish my expansion. That slow expansion put me in a tech hole I was trying to get out of all game (and did, for everyone except Washington). Things were relatively peaceful from that point on. Genghis declared war on me three or four more times, but only sent an actual attack once. He more or less gave up after I took one of his cities and Monty started attacking him repeatedly.

I tried to catch up by going for a whole bunch of great scientists, but only got two--both of them too late to matter. Instead I got four great artists, three of which were early enough that they could have been useful as scientists. I also got two great engineers, which rushed the Spiral Minaret and part of the Statue of Liberty.

I also spent quite a bit of time trying to raise relations with Washington, only to discover that alliances were turned off. I had never actually tried that before, so I didn't know that was the default. I did manage to get all my SS Casings done, and had all the SS Engines and one of the more expensive pieces nearly done, but Washington launched first. In retrospect, I should have tried for a diplo win, but didn't because I thought it would be pointless. Gandhi might have voted for me, but Genghis, Monty, and Alex all hated me for various reasons (not joining them in wars, not quietly dieing when I was on the receiving end of wars, etc.). I wish that I had a save that I could try that from as an alternate history, but I played ~150 turns in the last sitting, with nothing but autosave.

This game was lots of fun, and taught me lots about the value of using military to recover from a bad start. The honourable variant turned out to be much more difficult than I expected, as the only way that I think I ultimately could have won is by repeatedly attacking Washington. The inability to hurt financial civs as needed (except for maybe the aggressive Inca) is a pretty big penalty (at least from my perspective).

Thanks to Sirian and everyone else who had a hand in putting this on. I had a great time, and hope to return for more epics.

[Veovim]

Nothing too interesting happens until 2840 BC, when I meet George Washington.
Next turn, in comes Alex.

In 2520 BC, I meet Genghis Khan. What a friendly crowd we have here. Who's next? Monty and Napoleon?

In 2480 BC, I found Hinduism in Paris. I decided to go for fishing before it to work the lake, and I'm very curious what path other people took.

Thucycides (or something like that) ranks me as the largest civilization in the world. I guess creative's good for that, not that it's meaningful with only one city.

Monty shows up. Can I call it or what?

In 1950 BC, I meet Gandhi. I hope that's it for civs, or things are going to be pretty crowded.

Around 860 BC, both Gandhi and Monty contact me, offering open borders. Unfortunately, that's knowledge I don't have yet, and they also both have slavery. I'm going to have to see about catching up in tech.

In 700 BC I get ever so pleasant a surprise--a barb city!


In 680 BC I pick up Stonehenge.

I decide to finish off session one in 660 BC. Here's how things stand.


In 640 BC, Genghis demands that I cancel open borders with Gandhi. So begins the slippery slope of diplomacy...
On one hand, I could break the deal, then spread Hinduism to the Mongols and hopefully have an ally. On the other hand, there's no guarantee (particularly from anyone aggressive) since I've had so called "friends" declare on me from very good relations. Plus, I doubt the Mongols are going to be good buddies with anyone else. If I refuse the demand, I could try spreading Hinduism to Gandhi, but he's farther away, and Buddhist. I ultimately decide to keep the deal with Gandhi because it's the more honourable thing to do. After refusing that, Alex immediately demands the same thing. *Sigh*

In 180 BC, the first war starts: Alex declares on Gandhi!
He promptly tries to drag me in. Somehow, I don't think this was what was meant by the honourable rules letting you join another civ, so I decline.

Gah! Genghis cancels our open borders a couple turns before I was about to send a missionary to him.

In 60 AD, Genghis goes from saying that he might change his mind in a few years to "We just don't like you enough". I really don't want war, so I think that I'm going to bite the bullet, and convert to Buddhism. Except the screen tells me that I can't. Do you need to have the religion in one of your cities to convert to it? Instead, I decide to try bribing him with my wheat, to see if that'll change his mind.

Somewhere along the line (I forget exactly when), I started building the oracle. I would either get a free tech, or some gold to do deficit research a while longer. In 200 AD, someone else built it, so deficit research it was.

Apparently, my providing free wheat isn't enough for Genghis. He declares war on me in 270 AD. He has Keshiks, I have archers, and I'm less than happy about this. Monty is moving some troops around, but it's hard to tell whether he's going for me or Genghis. After another look at the diplo screen, I find out they're best buddies. Fun.

I go looking for allies, and get this line:

Added later: I would've guessed that it was triggered by it being December (the first, when I took the picture), but I haven't seen it since that day.

There's not really anything I can do to fight Genghis and he's about to take Lyons, so I wind up giving him Rheims for peace.

Right after Genghis, there are barbarians at the gates. How about a lucky break for once?

In 470 AD, Alex asks me to declare war on Gandhi again. I really don't need another war, and Gandhi actually does have troops running around near me thanks to the barbs to my south.

In 480 AD, I finally enter the classical era.

In 550 AD, the expected happens, and Monty declares war on me. I'm really at a loss as to how to avoid all this, so I'm very eager to see how better players have done it.
Added later: How to avoid it? More military! I got put off of bronze working, iron working, and horseback riding by the huge early costs, but I think that's probably just something that has to be dealt with on epic game speed.

Here's a shot of the world in 600 AD.

There are nothing but barbs in the south, and Lyons and Orleans are starving because Monty has pillaged my food. Most of his forces are gone, so that should be remedied soon.

It feels like it's been ages since Monty declared war, but he still refuses to talk. What do I have to do to get him to listen? Wipe him off the planet?

In 630 AD, Genghis demands Polytheism. He has several Keshiks outside my cities, so I give in. Next turn, they move away, and Monty asks for peace. Even after being attacked twice so early in this game, I still can hardly believe how bloodthirsty the AI's are in Civ 4.

After agreeing to peace with Monty, I still get the "Let's stop fighting..." diplo option. Oh well, as far as bugs go, that's pretty small.

In 680 AD, the barbs are back to haunt me again. If I can manage to stay at peace with Monty and Genghis (yeah, right...), I really should wipe them out soon.

In 840 AD, I get a message saying that Gandhi has adopted Universal Suffrage. That puts him way ahead of me! I can't say that I'm entirely surprised, considering how small I've been for how long, but yikes! He's all the way to Democracy while I'm researching Metal Casting?!?

Added later: Gandhi wasn't at Democracy, he built the Pyramids! Needless to say, I was very relieved when I realized that. Of course, irony dictates that one of the better players in this crowd will probably have actually discovered Democracy when the AI is back at Metal Casting.

In 910 AD, I'm back up to 4 cities for the first time in... well, I didn't record when I lost Rheims, so I can't say exactly how long. It's got to be ~800 years, though.

Added later: That would actually turn out to be one of my best cities!

In 970 AD, Washington declares war on Genghis Khan. Do I smell an opportunity? I sure hope so. At the least, I don't think that taking back what was originally mine (Rheims) would be dishonourable.

Some turns later, it seems that Washington doesn't want help, so I recall my stack to go after the other barbarian city. In 1035 AD, Sakae is mine.


In 1070 AD, Alex declares on Gandhi yet again. In 1080 AD, Gandhi asks me to declare on Alex, and when I decline, I get the following message:

It's very interesting how some civs will get mad if you don't join them, while others won't.

Somewhere along the line, Washington and Genghis make peace, then Monty declares on Genghis, and takes the city Washington was after. At least he razed it, so he won't get the benefit of the city.

In 1130 AD, Genghis declares war again. Let's see what happens now that I'm actually prepared.

In 1140 AD, I recapture Rheims. That sure felt good. I really, really, hope I can hold it.

I do manage to hold it, and in 1180 AD, I make Genghis pay me 130 gold for peace.

In 1200 AD, America demands tribute. At least I get a relations boost out of paying it.

In 1355 AD, Lyons gets a most welcome visitor.

I have no idea what I'm going to do with him, though.

Somehow, the Hanging Gardens never got built, so I picked them up in Paris in 1375 AD.
Also that turn, Genghis and Monty are back at it. I'm always happy to have them fighting each other instead of me.

The next turn, Genghis declares on me too! He's certainly feeling ambitious.

In 1415, Gandhi decides to join in the war. I've been content to sit idly by thusfar, but I'm wondering if I should start on the offensive so that I don't miss out on getting a piece of the pie.

In 1445, I get the +1 ship movement bonus for being the first to circumnavigate the globe. Washington has had caravals for so long that I can't fathom how he has managed to not do it yet. I was just shipping missionaries over to America, and hadn't even thought of this.

In 1450 AD, I get a scary message: Washington is all the way to Liberalism! Most civs except Genghis are up Civil Service and/or Theology. I'm a couple turns away from Guilds, and no one (save Washington) has it yet, so I'm hoping for some trading opportunities.

In 1535, Ling Lun is born. I was running 4 scientists and an engineer, and the one measly GPP from the national epic gives me an artist. I guess I'll be keeping him around to see if I can start a golden age some time.

In 1600 AD, I use Archimedes to rush the Spiral Minaret. Also, 8 of Washington's 11 cities are now Hindu. How far do I have to go to convert him?

In 1615 AD, I get a very tough decision. Washington wants me to help him out fighting Monty. I'd really rather not, but I've been trying unsuccessfully for quite some time now to get Washington to consider me a friend. I think that I'll agree to help him, but not actually go on the offensive. At least I'll divert some of his troops.

In 1625, I get another great artist. I only have long standing borders, so I don't think that they're going to do much as culture bombs. It's way too late in the game for a cultural victory, so that leaves specialists, and golden ages (too bad I can't start one with the two artists I have now).

In 1630, Monty actually manages to take one of Washington's cities!


In 1650 AD, I get a whole bunch of civic swapping messages, but the one that concerns me greatly is Washington swapping to Free Religion. On one hand, that moves us from cautious to pleased. On the other hand, he founded several religions (and has mine, too) for lots of happiness, and he's running away tech wise even without the research bonus from it. There has got to be some way to even things out, but I don't know what it is. If I could turn this pleased relation into whatever the next step is (never been there), and ally with him for a space race, I'm pretty sure I could win handily. Of course, I've never had a spaceship ally before either, so I don't have any idea what I'll have to do to achieve that. Either way, I'm going to need universities and observatories everywhere to stand any chance of catching up with him. If I had got great scientists like I wanted, I could have been at education a long ago (I'm currently six turns away), but I didn't.

I realize that it's been a while since I've shown a zoomed out pic of what's going on, so here are my lands in 1650 AD.


In 1690 AD, Genghis Khan decides that he's had enough of my refusing his demands, and actually declares war! He promptly moves on Orleans with 3 war elephants, 4 keshiks, and 2 catapults. He actually means business!

A few turns later, most of his attack has been stunted, but he's not quite gone yet.

Orleans seems to be a focal point for attacks from both Genghis and Monty, so I'm going to try using one of my great artists there, to see if it helps me intercept incoming attacks.

Regrettably, that accomplished absolutely nothing.

In 1702 AD, I finally get a great scientist. At this point in the game, it'll take about 170 turns to add up to the 2600 beakers I'll get towards printing press. This is at breaking point if Paris doesn't grow, but it still has some room. An academy is built.

In 1704 AD, Gandhi declares on Genghis! My saviour! Or he would have been, ten turns ago.

In 1710 AD, I make peace with Genghis (he gives me 180 gold). I'm rather puzzled by the AI's pillaging behaviour. Genghis destroyed the boats guarding my clams a couple turns away, but the fishing boats are still there.

AI requirements for resource trades are also a little odd sometimes. I've been trading Washington horses for marble for a little while, then he cancels it, asking for an extra 3 gold per turn. The next turn, I restart the original trade (I'm going for the Taj Mahal).

In 1720 AD, I notice that Washington has artillery. I'm back at military tradition. If anything, I think I'm losing ground. I'm really curious how I could get out of this.

In 1750 AD, I complete the Taj Mahal. I'm going to use it to speed research on astronomy, and start work on some astronomies. I also note that the golden age is 10 turns instead of the normal 8.


In 1762, Washington swaps to emancipation (I have no idea when he actually got democracy). I'm a couple techs away from it myself, so this could get interesting.

In 1764, Genghis demands my newly discovered astronomy, and declares war! This is not how I wanted to spend my golden age! The next turn, Monty declares on Genghis! These guys are nuts!

Somewhere along the line, I noticed that Tabriz (one of his southern cities--sorry, I don't have a picture) is lightly guarded, so I take it. He's declared war on me quite often enough to justify this, I think.

In 1772, I get a message that Alex has captured one of Gandhi's cities!

In 1782, James Watt is born in Bactrian. Unless Washington has a great engineer, it looks like I'll be getting the statue of liberty!

In 1802, I finally get Democracy, and can swap to Emancipation. The question is: what do I want to use for my other civics? Free Market is an easy choice. Free Religion would be nice for some science (and I'm done most of my buildings until factories come in). Bureaucracy vs Free Speech is difficult. I don't really need the cultural bonus, so it's a matter of whether the +2 commerce from towns will be better than the +50% commerce in my capital. It's looking like it might very well be, and I've never actually used it, either. Free Speech it is. Finally, do I want representation, or Universal Suffrage? I'm lacking a bit in production, so US would be really helpful in that regard. Representation would help with beakers from specialists, and I do need help with science. I haven't used US before either, so I figure that if I'm going into new territory with Free Speech, I might as well here, too. That particular configuration of civics will also drop me from 46 gold in upkeep to 19. Not too shabby.

Has anyone ever had the display of troops in a square malfunction before? For a second, I thought that half the guard of Tabriz had mysteriously disappeared.

As my government is re-established, I discover that Washington likes US. Cool! I should really pay more attention to such things in the future. I also discover that my great engineer can only supply half the necessary hammers for the statue of liberty! That thing is seriously expensive! It could be a huge help to me, though, so I decide to try anyway.

In 1814, I get a third great artist! What's up with this?

I wonder if Monty is aware that he's been pillaging my roads?


In 1840, I discover steam power, and find that Washington has poached my coal.


Gandhi comes asking for Liberalism in 1851. I decide to be nice, and give it to him. What are friends for, after all?

Around this time, I also notice that Gandhi has started spreading Buddhism to my lands. He gets gold, I get happiness. Sounds good to me. This is actually the first time I've seen an AI spread a religion like this.

I don't think I've mentioned yet how much nicer the wonder movies are now that the sound doesn't chop on them.


In 1856, I get the message that Washington has built Broadway.

In 1863, the Aztecs capture Korakorum! Perhaps I can use a great artist to culture bomb it.
Added later: I tried it, and failed miserably.

After seeing the stack of 15+ units inside it, I become fearful for my own safety from Monty. I'm going to have to build lots of Infantry, pronto!

In 1866, I get... wait for it... another great artist!

In 1873, I get Fascism, and discover that permanent alliances have been turned off! I have no idea how I'm going to overcome Washington's tech lead at this point, but I can always hope.

Two turns later, he completes the Apollo program! I'm far enough back, that I'm not convinced that it's even possible for me to win by space. I'd try for a diplo win instead, but Washington will be my opponent, and has better relations with everyone! (except for maybe Gandhi and Monty--and Monty is pretty mad at me for not joining him in his many wars)
Added later: In retrospect, maybe I should've tried anyway.

In 1893, I get Rocketry, and can start the Apollo program. I promptly discover that my most productive city (Paris) will take 33 turns to get it done! Not good! I need some aluminum, and badly.

The next turn, Washington gets a great engineer.

In 1899, I get a great scientist. I'd say that it looks like building the parts is going to be a slower process than researching the techs for them, so I think I'm going to save him for a golden age. If I get that far.

Spaceship Status (1902): Washington, SS Casing (1/5)

Spaceship Status (1907): Washington, SS Casing (2/5)

Sorry about the messy formatting from this point on. The forum wants to turn stuff into smileys!

Spaceship Status (1908 ): Washington, SS Casing (5/5)

Spaceship Status (1913 ): Washington, SS Casing (5/5), SS Thrusters (1/3 )

In 1919, I complete the Apollo Program. I'm 44 turns behind Washington, plus techs!

Spaceship Status (1921): Washington, SS Casing (5/5), SS Thrusters (3/3 )

In 1922, Washington gets another great engineer. It's as if the game is telling me to stop trying. (Or then again, maybe Washington just researched fusion--which conveys the same message.)

Spaceship Status (1925): Washington, SS Casing (5/5), SS Thrusters (3/3 ), SS Cockpit.

In 1928, Washington completes Hollywood.

Spaceship Status (1931): Washington, SS Casing (5/5), SS Thrusters (3/3 ), SS Cockpit, SS Docking Bay.
Me, SS Casing (1/5).

I decide that if I don't start my golden age now, I'm never going to get there.

Spaceship Status (1937): Washington, SS Casing (5/5), SS Thrusters (3/3 ), SS Cockpit, SS Docking Bay, SS Engine.
Me, SS Casing (1/5).

Have I mentioned that I wish permanent alliances were enabled?

Spaceship Status (1939): Washington, nothing new.
Me, SS Casing (2/5).

Spaceship Status (1940): Washington, nothing new.
Me, SS Casing (5/5).
That's probably as far as I'm going to get, but at least it's farther than I thought I would get.

In 1941, Washington completes his SS Life Support.

In 1949, I learn Satellites, and can see the entire globe finally. It's interesting, if not at all useful by this point.

In 1960, the inevitable hapens.


Apparently I demonstrated the leadership abilities of Ethelred the Unready. I'm curious how those are determined. Even though I had a bad start, I did get a decent lead over everyone but Washington by the end.

[Smegged]

One thing that I love about Civ 4 is the close space races. It is a severe handicap to be playing without offensive spies in the late game, and I've won more than one game now by less than one part. I'm glad you had fun and enjoyed your report.

[Sullla]

How did you manage to find Washington before Monty or Temujin? That's amazing! Pure dumb luck, of course, but I still marvel at the number of things that had to take place for that to happen!

Your Orleans site was a strong one, certainly stronger than the one I chose for my second city. That was another benefit from founding on the starting tile, the ability to squeeze out another strong city in the northeast using the wheat and pigs tiles. I'm still not convinced that staying put was a better decision, but the different strategies have been fun to watch.

Yes, you do need a religion in one of your cities to convert to it under normal circumstances.

Giving Temujin a city for peace? Ouch! You just can't neglect military in Civ4 like you could in Civ3; these AIs will come after you, especially the aggressive ones. I did feel fortunate that I wasn't declared on until a later date in my game - but that was no doubt due to the fact that my cities were well-defended early on, and thus deterred early AI aggression.

Then Monty too? Yikes. Well, these AI civs are like sharks with blood in the water. They'll jump all over weakness if you let them. The best solution is to make sure that you have strong defense early on, even if that means slowing expansion a little bit. The AI also won't talk to you and give you peace if it feels that it's winning; you need to inflict some pain to get them to come to terms. Nasty stuff, isn't it? Soren did some great work with the AI.

Gandhi wasn't to Democracy when he swapped to Universal Suffrage, no doubt he just built the Pyramids instead. Of course, he built it in 200BC in my game, 840AD in your game, heh.

Your barb cities popped up in the same spots as mine did. I wonder if that's determined ahead of time by the coding in some way? Probably not coincidence, considering how many tiles there were out there. I bet that the barb cities probably can only appear on those blue "suggested" tiles, or something like that. Interesting.

Your AIs look like they were very weak, at each other's throats the whole time. I mean, no one builds the Pyramids until 840AD? Hanging Gardens around in 1375AD? You may have been luckier than you realized. Washington had already researched Education by that point in my game.

The fact that you circumnavigated the globe first confirms that your AI civs are warring so violently that the didn't even have time to build ships. Amazing. If you thought Washington was running away in your game, imagine a situation where he was never attacked by anyone! Heh.

Culture bombs don't do much on long-established borders, as you found out in this game. They're most useful for hitting new, culturally-poor cities. With all those Great Artists, maybe you should have tried for a cultural victory!

Triggering a golden age earlier to help with ship construction might have helped. Then again, maybe not. For all that he did get into some wars, your Washington still managed to remain pretty strong on the whole. In the future, you may want to consider building more cottages, and using Free Speech instead of Bureaucracy (once you get towns, that extra commerce really makes a big difference).

Thanks for reporting! I hope you had fun with this game and are learning from the other reports.

[Veovim]

Your AIs look like they were very weak, at each other's throats the whole time. I mean, no one builds the Pyramids until 840AD? Hanging Gardens around in 1375AD? You may have been luckier than you realized. Washington had already researched Education by that point in my game.

I'm still not sure it was that lucky. You caught up to Washington in your game by using Gandhi as a trading buddy. I actually intended to do the same, but didn't mention it in my report because it never happened--as soon as I caught up with Gandhi, Alex started conquering him.

Triggering a golden age earlier to help with ship construction might have helped. Then again, maybe not. For all that he did get into some wars, your Washington still managed to remain pretty strong on the whole. In the future, you may want to consider building more cottages, and using Free Speech instead of Bureaucracy (once you get towns, that extra commerce really makes a big difference).

Except for losing Philadelphia, I don't think Washington actually saw much action. Also, I did actually use Free Speech, but I guess it got lost in the rambling about what civics to swap to

Thanks for reporting! I hope you had fun with this game and are learning from the other reports.

I am certainly finding other reports interesting. I mentioned in my summary that I thought I had learned lots about using military to recover from a bad start, but on second thought, it looks like I probably should've taken it several steps farther. Oh well, I'll just have to remember all this, and see how things go in epic 2!