NATURE Realm

[muxecoid]

Earth to mud is nice. Easiest 7 Gorgons node of my life.

[Seravy]

Playing Nature this time and I have been wondering... I guess Stone Giants are marked "needs testing" eternally because I never use any. I never use any because... Gorgons are better.

I was thinking but can't find a reason that would justify using a Stone Giant if I have access to Gorgons.

Stone Giants have more armor - but less hit points. Armor isn't relevant for Nature anyway - Iron Skin and Elemental Armor can make sure even your Gorgon is impossible to kill by most enemy units. So overall the Stone Giant is less durable and even has 1 lower resistance.

Stone Giant is supposed to be good against large amounts of normal units, due to having enough armor to not take damage from them. However, Gorgons do it better - with their Gaze attack they kill most of the attacking figures before they even get to roll for damage - and whatever is left of them won't really hurt the Gorgon's 42 health and 7 armor.

Stone Giants are also ranged - but range is not an issue for a realm that has web AND enough armor buffs at rare to make sure the Gorgon can and will reach any enemy and kill them in melee. And Stone Giants don't have high enough ammo to really care - yes, I can use them to kill a few things at range, but it'll have to use melee for the rest, and it's worse at it than Gorgons.

Now, Stone Giants do cost less, but the difference is not that significant - I wouldn't use them just because they cost 1000 less to research and 50 less to summon.

So...I really can't imagine a scenario when I would use a Stone Giant if I'm playing mono-Nature.
If it's not all Nature and I miss spells like Web or Elemental Armor then yes, but otherwise, no.

Question is, are we ok with that, or not? In all other realms, if there are multiple creatures at a tier, they all have something unique that makes them useful even if you have the other(s).

[Nelphine]

It provides variety in neutrals, and when fighting the ai.

I think stone giants are fine. Gorgons on the other hand are possibly overpowered. They're simply raw stat powerhouses.

[Nelphine]

To be more specific I usually use gorgons instead of very rare summons. While arguably the very rares are better, gorgons are cheaper, and do better with buffs, and can hit fliers without needing outside help.

[Seravy]

To be more specific I usually use gorgons instead of very rare summons. While arguably the very rares are better, gorgons are cheaper, and do better with buffs, and can hit fliers without needing outside help.

The goal was to have a creature that is halfway between a rare and very rare in strength, but is multiple figures and lacks those extras that make the very rares powerful (ranged attacks or merging or regeneration etc). That seems to have worked, but there is a problem - it also has a gaze attack so it can both attack flying things, and takes much less damage in melee as gaze kills enemies first. So while the role of the unit is as intended, it's much more powerful at it - the victims can't counterattack or even attack first against the Gorgon. That makes it stronger in melee than any of the very rares and what's worse, losing figures does not make the unit lose from gaze attack power.
The cost also doesn't reflect this gaze attack - 325 is a good price for the unit even without one.

I'm unsure how to fix this - reducing stats would turn the Gorgon back into a "gaze only" unit which is a sad role for a rare Nature creature - to be used as a non-invisible, more durable Night Stalker.

Reducing Gaze to have a -2 or -1 save modifier might be a good solution, but I like how the modifier is equal to the Petrify spell. (and it's already lower than Cockatrice's by one)

Raising cost seems necessary either way.

Another thing we can tweak is resistance - Colossus is the most resistant nature very rare, so Stone Giant having good resistance and Gorgons not would not feel out of place - albeit other giants tend to be the "low" resistance units in their tier. The big problem here is, with Survival Instinct, resistance stops mattering in the range of 9+.

Maybe cost is really the only real problem.

[Domon]

i think you can reatain the strict inferiority of stone giants as long as you give them a reason for being summoned. maybe decrease upkeep, decrease movement, increase ranged and ammo, reduce melee to make them better at city defense?

[zitro1987]

I'd give stone giants 1 more movement to allow nature to have a very well-rounded 'jack-of-all-trades' unit that isn't that impressive at anything (except maybe the 12 armor against weaker multi-figure)

Other ways to give them an edge vs gorgons:
* a third rock (very similar to a +1 movement in that it helps stone giants be more flexible/jack-of-all-trades with 2 benefits vs gorgons - the high armor in some scenarios, or going around throwing 3 rocks which in groups is devastating)
* +1-2 armor (enhance the benefit of the armor even further, as if these were gargoyle-esque in durability .. imagine this with immolation!)
* Reducing cost by 25-40 would make it superior to great lizard, allowing player to make doomstacks and deal insane damage on first 2 turns (rocks). Also a good solution.

[Nelphine]

What happens if an AI casts Seismic Mastery, then casts a spell that triggers the free earthquake, and has only allies? What happens if a human does it? What happens if an AI does it, but can't see any opponent city at all? (I'm assuming there's a cancel button, and that the AI can use it as well.)

[Seravy]

The AI will cancel the Earthquake for having no targets if there are no targets for any reason, including not having enemies or contact. This is no different from casting the spell for mana then losing the conditions required to target a city, for example by rerolling hostility that turn.
The human can do whatever they want as usual.
So yes, there is a cancel button and the AI can use it.

[Nelphine]

A city with flying fortress cast on it is not an invalid target for earthquake. Should this be changed? I assume simply nothing happens, but I feel like it shouldn't even be permitted.