RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[RefSteel]

EDIT: Crosspost. Updated ramblings below. I did see England's latest e-mail and find their proposal atrocious.

[Cull]

The proposal by England:

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So, the other thing we need to do, is come up with the formal terms of what we're agreeing to do. I'm intentionally distinguishing the pre-Currency and post-Currency situation; the game changes a lot with Currency.

England's proposal:

1) Sharing of techs and gold in an equitable manner:
- Researchers will be chosen based on the following criteria:
a) Maximum Beaker Rate
b) Beaker-Gold Skew (For example, at current rates, England can convert 43 gold into 51 beakers, for a 51/43 = 1.19 skew; Babylon's is certainly significantly high)
c) Gold availability/costs per turn: If we can't fund everybody's research, then this will be quite relevant
d) Availability to start a new tech (not likely to be an issue long-term; this is more for the pre-Currency situation. For example, since Carthage has the highest max beaker rate at the moment, and has finished Construction, so can save some gold now, it's expected they'll start one of the next rounds of tech as soon as they're available)

Funders:
As long as a funder is sufficiently supporting research, they are owed all techs researched upon request. If a civ is not meeting the definition of "sufficiently supporting research", then gifting the researcher tech is at the discretion of the researcher.
A definition of "sufficiently supporting research":
a) Supporting, in gold, at least 60% of the cheapest researcher's costs OR supporting at least 50% of the most expensive researcher's costs, whichever is lower. At the moment, this is a very low value (England's costs are 28gpt, because of our large army, so 14 gold would be "50% of the most expensive", but for, say, Babylon, whose costs are around 15-18gpt, 60% of that is only 10-12gpt). Essentially, if we get to 8 civs, we're guaranteed 3 researchers, and hopefully can get up to 4, or at least mostly-fund the 4th researcher.
- Subclause: Temporary exemptions for war-related reasons. This is for either large offensive operations, or for defensive conflicts where you need to whip your economy into the ground to survive.
b) If the current researchers are not being fully funded, and a funders' civ has gold available, it needs to go to fund the researchers.
- Subclause: Possible exemption: If you can justify that an upgrade is needed to prevent damage to your civ.

Lightbulbs:
Also owed to everybody, as if researched. First-civ bonuses are still your own (Liberalism's free tech is considered a lightbulbed tech).

Wonders:
All reasonable steps should be taken to avoid wonder races within PAT members. If an agreement can't be reached, one option is to have a third civ use a random number generator like random.org to decide who gets to go for the wonder; the civ researching the tech would get 2 chances, every one else interested would get one. Or you can race.

2) Bilateral relations:
- NAPs are considered amongst all PAT members to be in effect for the duration of this alliance, with a 10t cooldown.
- No obligations for mutual defense. While we want everyone to ensure the mutual safety of all PAT members, England does not believe it's fair to force you to defend your neighbor if it puts yourself at risk. Mutual defense is strongly encouraged.
- Settling: be reasonable. Again, we're not going to dictate terms, but when in doubt, tiles closer to a players' capital should belong to that player.
-Offensive operations: That is fully at the discretion of your own civ. Except for gold, as previously mentioned, any and all benefits of offensive war are fully yours.

3) Outside tech trades
Any tech researched after Currency is finished cannot be traded to non-PAT members without at least majority approval.

4) Dissolution:
So, while ideally this organization will last until the game end, we all know that there's a chance someone would want to leave. However, we'd also like to ensure that anyone who does leave isn't leaving their allies who funded their research in the cold without the techs that their soon-to-be-ex-allies paid for.

Our dissolution proposal:
No warfare within 10t of announcing your desire to leave PAT.
Any techs researched or lightbulbed within that cooldown period are still owed to PAT members (letting a tech sit at 99% finished on the 10th turn would be in very bad faith). However, any techs researched by the remaining PAT teams during that time are NOT owed to any civs leaving PAT. Also, during that 10t dissolution, a civ leaving PAT is under no obligation or expectation to fund research.

--
Cyneheard, Haphazard1, Antisocialmunky
Lords of Avalon
Suryavarman II of England

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[Maniac Marshall]

I'll just not reply to that proposal by England for now. I'm leaving as soon as the gf finishes the shower/is ready.

Sunday will be... interesting for me play wise. We'll be leaving the college of DuPage about 3pm, and wont have any internet till about 5am Monday morning. I don't expect to need a pause but... I'll keep everyone posted.

Try to get caught up on the diplomacy situation, and lets either have a chat, or just explain everything you don't like/what you would like in response to the England plan. I'm not super overjoyed by it myself.

BTW, I have made our intention to share MC with Rome, Portugal, India, and Byz public knowledge. Krill objected to india (but not Byz), but I'm giving it to them anyway.

[RefSteel]

I can see arguments for moving the Holkan either to the silver mine or 1N-1NE onto the mined hill. I see no reason to leave it in the city.

I agree with the sentry promotion for the injured chariot.

I would not promote the 100% health char to medic unless/until he's injured or he can improve things by healing someone else quickly.

Note Sentry promotion does not normally affect barb spawn rate - but is useful for early warning, obviously.

I'll try to get up to date on Sunday, but may not be able to do so in the next week and a half - if ever. I no longer have internet access at home, and I'm not sure how long it will take to fix that, plus I'm on vacation most of next week. I won't have access to chat for a similarly indefinite period, but I might be able to chat and/or even play a turn if needed on Sunday.

Krill has a good point re: India. I nevertheless agree with you, Maniac. I will be without connectivity shortly, and won't be able to connect again until at least Sunday.

[Maniac Marshall]

If you have a land line, I have a dial up plan I use like 3 times a year I could loan you =P

The only reason not to move him onto the hill is if he got attacked by one barb, crippled, then attacked by the other. Not sure the likelyhood...

Edit: I should have wireless access at the college/convnetion. If you're needed to play a turn, I'll have detailed info regarding military options available, as well as a micro plan update if needed. Stuff starts in 30 minutes, so I'm going to head shortly.

[Maniac Marshall]

OK, after running some sims, I think the miniscule chance the holkan gets double attacked and killed is worth moving him onto the hill. If the one across the river attacks first he has a 0% chance to win, and didn't even damage the holkan on any of the trial runs. If the other one attacks first, he has a 0.1% chance to win, and while he always damaged the Holk, the odds of him behing severely damaged is kind of low. I've got to think unless he the first barb gets extremely lucky, the holk is still going to have good odds on the one attacking it accross the river.

[Cull]

Hey Maniac, if you have problems with turnplaying, I can do the weekend with ease.

Spring Break is good.

Does the latest microplan still up to date?

[Maniac Marshall]

Well, the warriors attacked in the less preferable order, but the holkan killed both and only took one hit in the process. This is good, because with no other threats in the north, we were free to move the axe (and the warrior just in case) to cover the two workers making the farm at the capitol. This is important because that barb in the south did indeed move onto the hill.

So, we're down to just 2 barbs now right? Well, no... two more appeared. One in the south menacing the worker chopping for our new city, and another one on the Kilrah sign.

In other news, I did promote the one chariot to sentry and had a little peek west of PR before stationing him in the jungle to heal/possibly garrison Temminck, and we found Silks and Marble in the fog. I'll have to chat with Byz, but since they already have Silks, we'll probably want that site. It's mostly plains, but has a couple of flood plains. We could of course agree to share the marble... they have a 2 silks site we found for them, so silks should not be an issue.

I'll try to make a good report when I play the next turn, which I am almost sure I can do tomorrow night.

[Maniac Marshall]

Turn played. I should have not ended and let it roll... but I didn't. It's highly unlikely to matter, as, unless the turn rolls again in the next few hours, I'll be able to play the next turn and hand out MC.

The micro plan only goes through next turn... Haven't had time to go beyond...

I'd like both of you to have a look in game and make some suggestions as to what to build next places.

FS is obvious. Library, then chop grainery when boarders expand.
Temminck is much less obvious. Ball Court to let it grow up big? Dono.
PR... Stable? It's going to be able to make 3 turn HA's soon. 17X3 = 51. Ball court? Forge?
Fierias - Ball Court? Forge?

I really want input you guys. While I'm fine *for now* running the show, I don't want it to just be me making all the decisions.

[Cull]

FS is obvious. Library, then chop grainery when boarders expand.
Temminck is much less obvious. Ball Court to let it grow up big? Dono.
PR... Stable? It's going to be able to make 3 turn HA's soon. 17X3 = 51. Ball court? Forge?
Fierias - Ball Court? Forge?

I agree with FS's build. On Temminck, would a Forge be good? We could whip it, plus it gives happiness with silver. PR, I would put a forge in, then stable, for 2-3t HA, plus gives 1 happiness. Fierias, Forge

I like Forges.

Going to try logging in later, and see just how long it takes to build forges, compared to stables/ballcourts/whatever.