Help RFS-81 learn Civ 4

[RFS-81]

Unlike most people here, I didn't play Civ 4 when it was new. My first civ game was Civ 5. I've picked up Civ 4 Complete from a bargain bin (in a real brick-and-mortar store, like a caveman) a few years ago but haven't played it much. I'll give it a try again now, and will post some reports now and then. Any advice is welcome. I have absorbed a few things from the civ 4 survivor events, but actually, I have no idea what I'm doing

Game settings: Noble, random events off, small Pangaea.

Today is King's Day in the Netherlands, and to celebrate, I play Willem van Oranje. His traits are Financial, which is very good IIRC, and Creative, which isn't bad either.

Here is my start, I settled in place.

   

I begin by building a warrior and researching Mysticism and Meditation because I'd like to found a religion. The borders pop two turns later and I find a goody hut.

   

The hut yields Animal Husbandry. I meet Frederick of Germany in the East two turns later. Amsterdam grows on turn 8. I work the lake tile to make sure that I'm the first to Meditation. I see some bears roaming around in the East.

   

I move the warrior over there because, while I don't think that animals can attack cities, I'd rather not gamble on that. And there's a goody hut! On turn 12, I found Buddhism and make it my state religion. I next research Wheel and Pottery because cottages work together well with my Financial trait. I can turn those floodplains tiles into 3 food/3 gold. On turn 16, my second warrior finishes and I send him to explore to the north of my city. On turn 17, I collect the goody hut for 41 gold. My warrior ends his turn next to the bear and I set him to defend. On the interturn, the bear attacks but my warrior is unscathed. Exploring further to the northwest, I find the land of Ramesses II of Egypt. I also encounter a Native American scout. The comments of the leaders when you meet them are really weird. Most just seem to insult you, but Sitting Bull asks if it would be politically correct to offer a peace pipe. Of course not, smoking is not cool! Think of the children!

I see some animal wandering around to the east of my city, so I send one of my warriors back. Here's a map overview on turn 25. Any suggestions for my second city?

   

[Mardoc]

I'm not one of the Civ4 experts, but I know a thing or two.  I'll chime in until you grow past me .

Today is King's Day in the Netherlands, and to celebrate, I play Willem van Oranje. His traits are Financial, which is very good IIRC, and Creative, which isn't bad either.

Yes, this is right.  Willem is one of the best.

Here is my start, I settled in place.

Minor request for the future: can you turn on the resource tabs when taking screenshots to share? I know most of the icons, but they're easier to see with the resource flags on. Ctrl-R, IIRC, or there's also a button.

I begin by building a warrior and researching Mysticism and Meditation because I'd like to found a religion. The borders pop two turns later and I find a goody hut.

This is not very different than beginning a game of MOO by putting all your income into researching a weapon tech.  You're sacrificing a lot of your snowball with this opening.  If you have a variant or special case, you can go this route, but otherwise you always want to open a game by focusing on improving tiles, resources first.  Improved tiles produce 2-3x the income of non-improved tiles, while the cost to maintain a citizen to work the tile is the same at 2 food / ~1 commerce. Net profit from working a improved tile is usually 3-4x the profit of working an unimproved tile.  In general, you can judge the health of your civ by looking at the number of improved tiles you're working, similar to judging the health of a race in MOO by looking at their production.

You don't want to go crazy on workers so that they outpace your population growth...but this is remarkably difficult to do in practice. I try to aim for 1.5 workers per city, although of course specific situations can call for different ratios.

That usually means a Worker as your first build, and your tech path chosen for the resources you have, food resources first.  Occasionally it means a workboat, if your only capital food is seafood.  In this case, Agriculture for the rice (which I think Netherlands starts with), Pottery for cottages (by way of Wheel), and Mining -> Bronze Working for revealing and possibly improving copper.

Religion, while it's handy, can be acquired later.  There are six more techs which grant religion; if you've grown fast enough you can be confident in getting one of your own.  Plus, in single player, there is significant diplomatic value in matching your religion to your neighbors, which is easiest if you choose to adopt a religion they found.  90% of the benefits of religion do not require the Holy City.

You will definitely want Calendar for the bananas and incense, but it's a Classical tech so it's irrelevant for an opening.  

These techs give enormous non-resource benefits as well: Pottery enables granaries, which let your population grow twice as fast, and Bronze enables Slavery, which lets you turn population into production.

I move the warrior over there because, while I don't think that animals can attack cities, I'd rather not gamble on that.

For future reference, animals cannot enter borders.  Other barbarian units, and of course the other civs, can, but you were a bit too careful here.

I next research Wheel and Pottery because cottages work together well with my Financial trait. I can turn those floodplains tiles into 3 food/3 gold.

This was a good move, but of course you can't build cottages without workers, which you appear to still be neglecting.

I see some animal wandering around to the east of my city, so I send one of my warriors back. Here's a map overview on turn 25. Any suggestions for my second city?

I would suggest you pause the settler until you can build a worker or two, honestly.  A second city won't be very profitable without improved tiles to work.

That said, I would be leaning toward going east for your next city, somewhere you can grab the horses and cows and floodplain.  Probably on the plains hill that had the goody hut, although a case could be made for the grassland tile 1 NE of that hill.  It's easier because you're Creative, so you don't have to make a big distinction between tiles immediately available and tiles you can only work after popping borders.

Here's my reasoning:  In general, resource tiles are the most important tiles, especially in the Ancient era where a city can only work 5-6 tiles anyway.  East gets you two new resources, close to your capital.  You want to be close to save on maintenance, garrisons, and worker turns; generally you want to expand in a blob rather than a line.  East is also forested rather than jungled, which helps you in the medium-term when you've already improved your resources. You can chop forests substantially earlier than jungles, to improve the tiles underneath. Also, forest chops give you production while jungle chops give you nothing but access to the tile. Finally, riverside tiles are generally more valuable than dry tiles. The river gives you extra commerce, the option for farming, and provides health to your city.

A valid alternative would be to build a city north of your capital, close enough that it can share the rice and banana. This is somewhat weaker because it doesn't claim *new* resources, but being able to swap an improved tile from one city to another can save you some worker labor. Your capital will get to a point where it doesn't need all the food all the time, which is when you can use that food to grow your neighboring city. Although the reward is smaller, the required investment is also smaller. I would be inclined for your third city to be north.

[RFS-81]

Thanks! I'll switch over to builders then. I take it that it's best to ignore the game's building advice. I went warrior first because it was recommended, which seemed reasonable because I need to explore the map, and I also need a warrior to protect builders and settlers. Is there some delay before (human) barbarians appear?

[Dark Savant]

Thanks! I'll switch over to builders then. I take it that it's best to ignore the game's building advice. I went warrior first because it was recommended, which seemed reasonable because I need to explore the map, and I also need a warrior to protect builders and settlers. Is there some delay before (human) barbarians appear?

Animals will always start spawning on turn 5, no matter what settings you use.

Human barbarian units start spawning depending on game speed, difficulty level, and game speed.  At normal speed and Noble difficulty, the absolute earliest is turn 35.  In practice, it will be some time later, as they won't appear if enough animals are still around (the game will start despawning animals at this time, but it does so gradually), or if there aren't enough cities.  They also won't spawn within 1 tile of your borders, or within 2 tiles of any player unit.

[RFS-81]

I've got my first builder worker out and a second one in the works, any suggestions on what to improve? It'll take two more turns before I can chop any forests. I seem to remember that food is the most important resource in Civ 4, so rice farm, then chop?

Both my warriors have been promoted from fighting animals. I've picked the Woodsman promotion for both, since there seem to be lots of forests, and it seems more interesting than the basic +10% combat promotion. (Not saying it's better, of course )

[Dark Savant]

I've got my first builder worker out and a second one in the works, any suggestions on what to improve? It'll take two more turns before I can chop any forests. I seem to remember that food is the most important resource in Civ 4, so rice farm, then chop?

Both my warriors have been promoted from fighting animals. I've picked the Woodsman promotion for both, since there seem to be lots of forests, and it seems more interesting than the basic +10% combat promotion. (Not saying it's better, of course )

Yeah, that rice tile is the best one at your start -- improving it quickly is a priority.  The standard play is to produce a worker from turn 0, and farm it right away.

If you want a very rough rule-of-thumb for early-game value of food vs. hammers vs. commerce ... presuming 1 food is worth 10 arbitrary units, then 1 hammer is worth ~8 and 1 commerce is worth ~5.

This changes later in the game ... hammers and commerce both gain value, and food loses value.  This is not quite as pronounced as it was in Civ 3, where the early game (most of the Ancient era) is the Age of Food, the mid-game (up to about early Industrial) is the Age of Shields, and the late game is the Age of Commerce.

Separately ... founding your own religion this early is worth more at lower difficulty levels, and more the more players there are.  You're at a low enough difficulty level so it's a decent play, but starting around Monarch it stops paying off.

[Alhazard]

What Mardoc said. Worker 1st opening is definitely the standard in Civ4. Because the SE coast is not scouted, I would not place a 2nd city there until we know if there is seafood to the coast. Best city spot seems to be 3N of cap. And definitely chasing religion is a big mistake because you are already CRE so dont need religion for border pops. You generally want to build your settler the same turn you research BW so you can adopt slavery while settler is in transit but too late now. I would go wheel->pot, cottage the FPs and research Math and Masonry, settle on the stone and chop out mids at capital.

[haphazard1]

Lots of good advice already offered. Food is very important particularly early to get your cities growing, and to help build settlers and workers (who add surplus food to the hammers put into their construction).

Willem is a very strong leader with FIN and CRE. You have already noted that cottages along rivers, such as those flood plains, synergize well with the FIN trait. The CRE trait makes early city placement much more forgiving, since you will not have to worry about popping borders. You will also have much less difficulty if and when you have border pressure with a neighbor.

Founding your own religion is a valid approach, particularly at Noble difficulty. The extra culture is not as important since you have CRE to pop your borders, but the happiness can be useful. And if you spread your faith to your neighbors you may be able to win some allies. Be careful of AIs who have founded their own religions; conflict with them will be very difficult to avoid.

Barbarians (other than animals) won't show up for a while, and then they will usually not enter your borders for a bit; this depends on the total number of cities on the map, if I am remembering correctly. But once that threshold is met you will need to be ready for them to come after your improvements and your cities. And any workers or settlers you have moving about -- escort your settlers, or make very certain their path is clear. Finding a source of horses or copper and connecting it to your cities will be important; planning a city to claim a strategic resource is usually a strong move. Sometimes you are lucky enough to have a resource at your capital, just hidden until it is revealed by the appropriate tech (Animal Husbandry for horses, Bronze Working for copper, Irow Working for iron).

Eventually your cities will grow to the point of being unhappy; all sorts of additional things to worry about then. Slavery is an option, religion can help. That should be a ways off yet, though.

Good luck! Civ IV can be a tremendously fun game. I hope you enjoy it.

[RFS-81]

Founding your own religion is a valid approach, particularly at Noble difficulty. The extra culture is not as important since you have CRE to pop your borders, but the happiness can be useful. And if you spread your faith to your neighbors you may be able to win some allies. Be careful of AIs who have founded their own religions; conflict with them will be very difficult to avoid.

I forgot to mention it, but I encountered Mansa Musa and he starts out at Annoyed because he's founded Hinduism.

Finding a source of horses or copper and connecting it to your cities will be important; planning a city to claim a strategic resource is usually a strong move. Sometimes you are lucky enough to have a resource at your capital, just hidden until it is revealed by the appropriate tech (Animal Husbandry for horses, Bronze Working for copper, Irow Working for iron).

I popped Animal Husbandry from a hut. I've found horses a bit away, but it would be a good location for a 2nd city.

Eventually your cities will grow to the point of being unhappy; all sorts of additional things to worry about then. Slavery is an option, religion can help. That should be a ways off yet, though.

So you whip cities once they reach the happy cap? That'd cause even more unhappiness, but I guess it can work if you don't do it so often that this effect stacks multiple times.

[Brian Shanahan]

On barbs entering borders the formula is 2N+1 cities on the map where N is the number of players. So a six player game won't see the barbs attack your lands until the 13th city is planted.

A word of warning, not every civ needs two cities for this to happen.