RB Pitboss #3 [SPOILERS]- Suryavarman II of England

[Cyneheard]

The formal PAT proposal:

So, the other thing we need to do, is come up with the formal terms of what we're agreeing to do. I'm intentionally distinguishing the pre-Currency and post-Currency situation; the game changes a lot with Currency.

England's proposal:

1) Sharing of techs and gold in an equitable manner:
- Researchers will be chosen based on the following criteria:
a) Maximum Beaker Rate
b) Beaker-Gold Skew (For example, at current rates, England can convert 43 gold into 51 beakers, for a 51/43 = 1.19 skew; Babylon's is certainly significantly high)
c) Gold availability/costs per turn: If we can't fund everybody's research, then this will be quite relevant
d) Availability to start a new tech (not likely to be an issue long-term; this is more for the pre-Currency situation. For example, since Carthage has the highest max beaker rate at the moment, and has finished Construction, so can save some gold now, it's expected they'll start one of the next rounds of tech as soon as they're available)

Funders:
As long as a funder is sufficiently supporting research, they are owed all techs researched upon request. If a civ is not meeting the definition of "sufficiently supporting research", then gifting the researcher tech is at the discretion of the researcher.
A definition of "sufficiently supporting research":
a) Supporting, in gold, at least 60% of the cheapest researcher's costs OR supporting at least 50% of the most expensive researcher's costs, whichever is lower. At the moment, this is a very low value (England's costs are 28gpt, because of our large army, so 14 gold would be "50% of the most expensive", but for, say, Babylon, whose costs are around 15-18gpt, 60% of that is only 10-12gpt). Essentially, if we get to 8 civs, we're guaranteed 3 researchers, and hopefully can get up to 4, or at least mostly-fund the 4th researcher.
- Subclause: Temporary exemptions for war-related reasons. This is for either large offensive operations, or for defensive conflicts where you need to whip your economy into the ground to survive.
b) If the current researchers are not being fully funded, and a funders' civ has gold available, it needs to go to fund the researchers.
- Subclause: Possible exemption: If you can justify that an upgrade is needed to prevent damage to your civ.

Lightbulbs:
Also owed to everybody, as if researched. First-civ bonuses are still your own (Liberalism's free tech is considered a lightbulbed tech).

Wonders:
All reasonable steps should be taken to avoid wonder races within PAT members. If an agreement can't be reached, one option is to have a third civ use a random number generator like random.org to decide who gets to go for the wonder; the civ researching the tech would get 2 chances, every one else interested would get one.Or you can race.

2) Bilateral relations:
- NAPs are considered amongst all PAT members to be in effect for the duration of this alliance, with a 10t cooldown.
- No obligations for mutual defense. While we want everyone to ensure the mutual safety of all PAT members, England does not believe it's fair to force you to defend your neighbor if it puts yourself at risk. Mutual defense is strongly encouraged.
- Settling: be reasonable. Again, we're not going to dictate terms, but when in doubt, tiles closer to a players' capital should belong to that player.
-Offensive operations: That is fully at the discretion of your own civ. Except for gold, as previously mentioned, any and all benefits of offensive war are fully yours.

3) Outside tech trades
Any tech researched after Currency is finished cannot be traded to non-PAT members without at least majority approval.

4) Dissolution:
So, while ideally this organization will last until the game end, we all know that there's a chance someone would want to leave. However, we'd also like to ensure that anyone who does leave isn't leaving their allies who funded their research in the cold without the techs that their soon-to-be-ex-allies paid for.

Our dissolution proposal:
No warfare within 10t of announcing your desire to leave PAT.
Any techs researched or lightbulbed within that cooldown period are still owed to PAT members (letting a tech sit at 99% finished on the 10th turn would be in very bad faith). However, any techs researched by the remaining PAT teams during that time are NOT owed to any civs leaving PAT. Also, during that 10t dissolution, a civ leaving PAT is under no obligation or expectation to fund research.

--
Cyneheard, Haphazard1, Antisocialmunky
Lords of Avalon
Suryavarman II of England

[haphazard1]

PAT was Kyan's way of mis-pronouncing "Post-CAN". I don't know how he did that.

Hmmm. Well, the 'P' is easy enough, and I guess there is an 'A' in "Post-CAN". But where the 'T' comes from I haven't a clue.

Barb axes...that can be unpleasant, although chariots deal with them quite well so long as you have enough visibility to not end turn next to one. And if we can land the Great Wall...enjoy the barbs, everybody. If someone else gets it, we will need to think about a couple fog-busters in former France. At least until new cities get put down to fill the void.

[antisocialmunky]

Please Ask Twinkletoes?

[Cyneheard]

I don't think even Kyan knows how it became "PAT".

Yeah, getting TGW in time to deal with those barb axes...perfect!

Caught HRE in chat; extended the NAP to be auto-renewing to t100, with a 10t cooldown. Unintentionally great line from Ilios:

DIM: and then we need to start looking for post-CAN situation
me: right

Sorry, buddy, you're about 10t too late for that...:neenernee

[antisocialmunky]

Should still take them up on the offer to talk about it without telling them what we have planned. Should atleast get some insight form them on what they plan to do.

[Cyneheard]

Agreed, ASM, we should get a sense of what DIM wants. Talking with him, the plan is a T89 destruction of Orleans, unless France does something silly in the meantime and Orleans dies faster. Our workers at Beaver Rock now need to stay covered most of the time; Jenkins the Byz Woody II is around. While I don't expect Byz to attack for no reason, they probably WOULD steal a worker, if given the chance.

T84:






And because I can, demographics:

[Cyneheard]

The interesting chat goes first. Talking with HRE, they're trying to think through what to do, post-CAN. I think he inferred a little too strongly that we'd be supportive of this group, if it could form...I tried to be non-committal.

me: hey, you mentioned working on post-CAN stuff?
DIM: yup. I can already tell you I want at least you and Ottomans on our side
me: what about Carthage?
DIM: bit tricky. they denied Construction to Ottomans. i haven't asked for it myself yet
me: that's the thing...we'd rather stick with Carthage than the Ottomans
DIM: then we have a problem. I'll have a talk with Carthage when I catch them online
me: ok. running through the other kingpins: what about India and Egypt?
DIM: have they mentioned anything about post-CAN to you?
me: Carthage? Yeah, we've been talking about what they should go for next
DIM: I'm not sure about India and Egypt. I think they will not end up on the same side
me: and how many sides are you expecting there to be?
DIM: depends. I expect the southern nations to form a block
me: agreed. although the bloc might not include everybody on that row. Mali and Babylon are definitely inseparable
DIM: yup. Maya and Byz are pretty close as well
me: and Babylon/Byz have had an interesting relationship
DIM: well, I had a long chat with Byz the other day
me: I had a short one with him, 2 days ago
DIM: and it would seem that their relationship isn't as bad as was rumoured. I'd have to talk to Babylon first for confirmation though
me: agreed
DIM: I sent them a greeting. waiting for them to get back to me. I'm not sure where Krill places himself
me: where he's the most indispensable
DIM: yup. India and Aztec are pretty much joined at the hip. so are Inca and Rome. Portugal is a bit of the odd man out
me: aye, but a little peace, and they'd recover fast
DIM: no I mean they don't seem to have allied themselves with another group atm
me: true enough
DIM: ideally. I'd like for Carthage, Ottomans, HRE and England to be complemented by 2-4 teams. I can't see Inca or Rome in
me: then you're talking the southern group
DIM: either them or India/Aztec
me: A lot depends first on Carthage/Ottomans
DIM: yup. if we can get that core group going, we just need to cherry pick a couple of solid other teams. although I think that even just the four of us would be a force to reckon with
me: not if it's against 10
DIM: do you really expect all the other nations to ally against us? not likely
me: then, 4v8v2
DIM: india and egypt on the same side?
me: if it served Krill's interests, he would.
DIM: sure
me: India? Don't know.
DIM: but I don't think india will be wanting to. i can see India/Aztec/Maya/Byz happening
me: Babylon/Mali would align with someone
DIM: yup. we should have something set up by T92, when Babylon finishes Currency
me: agreed, that's the game-changing time. I'm still skeptical that this four-some is the best core, but don't have another good idea [OOC: that includes you] Carthage/Ottos...going to be tough
DIM: have carthage spoken to you about ottomans?
me: yeah, and they don't trust them.
DIM: did they give any reason?
me: I honestly don't remember at the moment, I'd have to check
DIM: can't see what happened. well, if you have any other ideas
me: I'd have to think, of what makes sense. I think working with one of India or Egypt does make sense.
DIM: yup
me: and from our perspective, the southern teams have been good allies
DIM: you mean the entire row or just Mali/Babylon?
me: Mali/Babylon
DIM: well it would make strategic sense
me: definitely
DIM: do you think they'll be able to pull their weight?
me: yes. they're not quite as powerful, but they're still in solid shape, and I don't want every team in the group to be a front-runner
DIM: indeed. ah man I really don't know
me: it's not easy
DIM: no I do. it's going to be a bloody mess [OOC: You have no idea...]
DIM: well, I'm off

[Cyneheard]

Portugal is in PAT. Awesome. They don't realize how necessary war is in these games...

me: you around?
Willem: hey yeah. what's up?
me: we'd like to make an offer. We've been organizing a split of CAN, and want to bring you in. you'd be team #7
Willem: ok
me: you, me, Carthage, Egypt, Mali, Maya, Babylon
Willem: i think we'd really have to have india with us
me: hm...
Willem: unless you know something is up?
me: then it becomes too many teams. India + Aztec have to join
Willem: aztec and india are that close?
me: yes. at least, the Aztec are that close to India. not sure if it's the other way around
Willem: i'm with you guys, it's just I can't really dump india like that. what sort of split would this be?
me: I'm not sure I know what you mean?
Willem: well how hostile are you planning on being with the other faction, and when would this happen
me: the latter: very soon
Willem: do you think hre are going to go ahead with giving CoL around? I personally doubt it
me: how hostile: Cold-war stalemate between Carthage/us and Ottos/HRE would be my preferred set-up, with Construction not going to everybody, there's 0 chance COL's going everywhere
Willem: yeah. hre were trying to sound us out about this just today
me: they're sounding us out, as well
Willem: or maybe I was trying to get a feeling of where they currently stood, but they are very close to ottomans. it's good that you say egypt would be on our side
me: I don't see Krill wanting to work with India
Willem: i had been worrying about their quietness, yeah
me: England's personally ambivalent on the India question
Willem: you basically listed all the civs i'm closest to diplomatically anyway
me: awesome. India's still going to get value out of Aesthetics
Willem: except mali, haven't actually spoken to them at all really
me: consider Mali a diplomatic vassal of Babylon
Willem: so this is how I would see it then. England/carthage/egypt/mali/babylon/maya/us and hopefully india. HRE/ottomans/byz/rome/inca with aztec and india neutral
me: you see aztec/inca neutral with HRE/Ottos?
Willem: it'll take a while for rome, byz and inca to organize their new alliance. well see this is why it's better for india to be with us
me: the thing is, I don't see India wanting to work with Krill
Willem: i don't think they are that concerned about aztecs. heh, i've been trying to contact india
me: don't bring this up to them?
Willem: no, but I need to know where they currently stand with everyone not us
me: ah, fair enough
Willem: so what would be the plans going forward then? how long do you foresee us all teching together?
me: 3-4 researchers
Willem: and militarily?
me: 4-3 funders. Militarily: Well, we'd be up Construction, and we can out-tech them. get CS/Machienry quickly. everyone's owed all techs, as long as they're doing sufficient funding
Willem: ok well that is good news for us, which means we definitely need peace with rome though
me: at first, we think you'd be better as a funder, at least until your economy recovers, but, that's based on beaker output, and gold/beaker skew
Willem: yeah, we have 0 libraries atm but we can get them easily enough as cre
me: which favors Carthage (beakers...OMG yes), and Babylon (academy). how much gold do you have?
Willem: 200 something
me: upgrades?
Willem: rome just pillaged our silver though
me: or, just, war-focus?
Willem: just prod, whipping
me: what's your NAP situation? We've got auto-renewals with just about everyone, 10t cooldown & cancellable T100
Willem: i think we have a 15t cooldown with maya and france? something similar with india that we haven't actually officially signed
me: ah, ok.
Willem: if india doesn't join with us, that would make us very isolated strategically. hre to our sw, rome nw, and ottos se
me: other question: We've been considering trying to buy Rome off. Bring them to tech parity (need Carthage contact), and have them be a military arm. HRE and Ottos can't do too much to you, or else us and Carthage would step in
Willem: i'm not that angry with rome, but tbh I think they aren't at all trustworthy when it comes to alliances. they play very much as loners, but your idea is definitely worth trying, but we would get some idea when they respond to our latest peace proposal
me: ok; let us know when that happens
Willem: ok
me: their goal is to be a player, it seems? And militarily, they can be that.
Willem: i think yes they should jump at this chance if it was offered
me: it's the only way they can ever get tech. what did you offer Rome, if I may ask?
Willem: no concessions. nap till turn 135. no rop, no gifting. and no gifting units to incans of any kind either directly or indirectly through another civ for duration [OOC: No chance of that deal being taken as-is. Sorry, that's not enough...they're winning. And have no reason to be peaceful.]
me: I will say, our offer probably won't extend to Inca. the response from the southern row of civs was "Portugal, great. Rome, fine. Inca...not so much"
Willem: no that's good, force old enemies to have to work together. heh ok
me: on both sides
Willem: i think it'll be best if someone else brings this up with rome
me: fair point
Willem: but whoever does needs to be very careful, because rome shares intel very closely atm with inca and byz
me: right. we knew they aren't the most tight-lipped. the key is Carthage contact, since they're the #1 researcher by a long shot
Willem: how do they have so many bpt?
me: furs, river grass cottages
Willem: fin/exp, i forgot
me: and that. Pacal with very good land
Willem: and no wars at all, or threat of war
me: not yet, that's for sure
me: but, they've got a NAP with Ottos through T100, and the Ottomans might have a now-or-never mentality there. basically, the goal is to keep Carthage on 100% research and a couple of others. India/Ottos/HRE don't have very good techers. HRE's ok, but India and Ottos are big empires without great commerce land
Willem: yeah, they could convert quite quickly
me: they could, that's true, but it'll take time
Willem: i really want india in. if i had to choose between having india or having rome I would much rather india
me: if you don't mind, I'll send this chat around to everyone?
Willem: well just make the salient points unless you think they are all absolutely trustworthy? i don't think it's a sure thing that India would require aztec
me: but they'd also be losing the Ottomans, who we suspect are close. within this group, everyone's trustworthy
Willem: you'd probably want to avoid sending that bit about mali being babylon's diplomatic vassal to mali
me: true, very true. It would be the same to everybody
Willem: i know what you meant, and you didn't mean anything nasty about it
me: it comes across very wrong in an email
Willem: just vassal is a loaded term
me: that too. meh, it's easier to just summarize [OOC: which is what I did.]
Willem: so who will tech CoL then? i imagine egypt could bulb it if required, but they have 3 shrines to build now
me: I think that's egypt's plan. Krill's been planning to grab lots of religions and with Gandhi of Egypt can do it

[Cyneheard]

T85:

Still sorting out PAT terms and what to do about Rome. However, good news:

The Barbarians are coming. Specifically, to Orleans. There's a barb axe 1NW of Orleans. So we've got 2 HRE HA (1 Combat I), and our 5XP HA + the 2 chariots from Rheims (The Black Prince is 4XP, 100% health. Hugh Calveley is at 74hp, Shock) will be able to hit Orleans, depending on how much damage the barb does. Let's end this.



Conan is 1t from meeting the Aztec, I can see the outline of their borders.



Gulliver, not sure how many turns from meeting Rome.



Back home, The Great Wall is due to finish. However, the barbarian axe near Beaver Rock will also be coming in to our borders. So I whipped the catapult to overflow into a chariot @ BR, this will require delaying the revolt to HR/OR by 1t to finish the chariot. That means 1t of an unhappy citizen at BR, but that's the best I can do on such short notice; if I'd checked our borders before moving our units, could've sent one of the HAs back to protect BR. .

[Cyneheard]

This was interesting:

So, I offered to Byz the ability to raze Orleans if our stack ended up being just short next turn; they get the gold, but then it's over. They said they'd talk it over with Morgan, but then came up with a more, shall I say, interesting offer:
Us selling them Monarchy.

I'd be willing to listen to a Monarchy-for-gold offer (PAT approval needed), probably for ~150-200 gold. Monarchy was 500 base beakers; we research at a 1.2 to 1 skew, so that's 400 gold in opportunity costs. However, it would cost them about 500 gold (no Mono), so I think setting the price closer to 1/2 their costs makes sense.