RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Zara of the Ottomans

[Sockboy]

Also, when are we going to be working some scientists? Not that it matters much right now (we have a number of commerce cities developing equally) but it would be good to know what we have re:bulbing opportunities.

We'll be running two scientists out of Ophir once it's had time to whip out a granary, a library and a hammam (aided with a chop). The granary whip takes place in 3 turns (2 pop whip), the library is very quick to build (1 pop + overflow hammers), but the hammam takes some time (2 pop + chop). I think it's better to build the hammam first before the library otherwise we might have happyness issues, but if we're going to be getting religion here in time for the Hammam then we can speed it up a bit. My guess is it'll be something like 30 turns (13ish turns for infra + growth and 17 for the scientist) before we pop a scientist (so estimate t115?). I think it's best to keep Ophir above size three after whips since it has three tiles which all add food (pigs + 2fps) whilst everything else is either food neutral or food negative. The one exception is the granary which we're whipping from 4->2 since it'll help us grow fast... and it will grow fast!

If we really need a scientist earlier we can run them a bit earlier but that comes at the expense of working cottages. I don't think it's a good deal. TBH I think we should be looking at setting up an academy with our first GS since the only tech of real value in the near future is Philosophy and I can't see us using it much (good trade bait though). Education is next, but I think that's a bit far away... I could be wrong if the tech pace keeps up though.

[Sockboy]

Turn flipped...

Big news of the turn is.... We have gold! it's hooked now and we're sitting pretty at +25gpt. Breakeven tech is somewhere between 40 and 50% (closer to 40 than 50) the economy is on it's way to recovery, We'll pick up Calendar soon and be able to hook up the spices tile as well.

The other big news is Krill's got some borders to our SW. From the looks of the borders he's planted on a plainshill to our SW capturing both sheep and corn in the BFC. They looks like second tier borders edges and some hunting through the civstats page shows he planted his last city 5 turns ago. So I guess he chopped out an obelisk on the turn it was founded and dropped a missionary in there too? Anyway if he does bulb Confucianism there's a fair chance it'll become a holy city too. Also our metal is pretty much in a direct line between the two cities, and on fairly undefensible terrain... We should be careful here. Good news is our borders will pop again in about 8 turns so we'll have a bit more security then. Wonder if it's worth sending Belit on a quick recon of Egyptian territory?

The other other news is there's a Numidian Cavlary sitting to our south. Not sure what their intention is, but I've got an axe in the forest covering our nearest worker. I know it's not ideal to use the axe, we're starting to make some spears now but our next military units are still a handful of turns away.

I haven't moved the scouting chariots or the missionary. Whomever logs in next should spread the faith to Zingara then. We should also probably revolt to Hinduism.

[WarriorKnight]

Had an talk with DIM and India about the situation. The main point is that it doesn't look like Carthage or England are with us (England also doesn't trust us for some strange reason). The good news it that we have NAP's with both of them, so we are kinda safe for now.

With both of them out, we hope that we can still get Maya and/or Byz on our side. We might also have to get Inca and Rome on our side too. That would mean we have AWTA/Inca/Rome/Byz/Maya, although they have all the researchers on their side (losing battle really, important that we become a researcher).

I'm kinda worried that we'll be left out of the rest of the CAN techs. The good news is the only one we really need is currency (so we can gift gold to each other), and there is a strong chance that we can trade Babylon IW for it (otherwise they'll need to duplicate it).

In the meantime though, more military is VERY important. I'm don't think we want to build missionaries or revolt to Hinduism ATM. (We could, but I'm not 100% sure ATM, although it doesn't affect our military, so it's probably fine)

I think the drama plan is off. We will probably have to head for construction, although I'd like to know if Carthage refuse to give construction to DIM before doing that (if they do, then they are with Egypt, no questions asked).

[Sockboy]

Troublesome... Ok, if we're not planning on converting to Hinduism (as we're waiting for Ruff) then the misionary should probably go to Cimmeria (Not a big deal either way though, since we won't be using it), We could also delete it... What's the ETA on a missionary from Ruff? Techwise I think we should still be ok for Calendar, but agree the others are looking more and more unlikely. Let's hurry up and find Babylon. Getting currency for IW would be huge for us...

Edit: I thought another team already duplicated IW? At least one team didn't need IW gifted to them? Rome maybe?

I've not really been keeping track too much of foreign policy, which civs are the techers ATM? Carthage obviously, but who else has a decent economy? Krill? Babylon? England? Basically, who do we need to cripple to get AWTA back into the game if it does split the way it's looking?

Byz have been quite firendly, have any of the other teams (in AWTA) received similar messages? Probably worth sending them something friendly back, looks like we might need them onboard if posible...

More military? OK, you got it boss I'll see what I can do.

[WarriorKnight]

Troublesome... Ok, if we're not planning on converting to Hinduism (as we're waiting for Ruff) then the misionary should probably go to Cimmeria (Not a big deal either way though, since we won't be using it)

Well, I've already put it in Zingara. We still need to spread Hinduism to our cities (thanks to an agreement for Krill's alpha) but it is very low priority.

I think we are fine on military ATM, My only suggestion would be to build walls (since spies are banned, the defensive bonus could be useful) or archers instead of missionaries in Zingara, but the OR bonus could still be useful in our other cities (I could go either way ATM). The apostolic palace hammer bonus also applies, although that's also not a priority ATM.

I'll comment on the rest later.

[WarriorKnight]

This could be interesting:

Willem: Really need to speak to you guys very urgently, also hre
and I have a lot to say that depends on what you say in response so it really needs to be a real time chat
please let me know as soon as you are available

and then:

Willem: hey you there?
me: yeah, but I can't stay for long
Willem: ahh right
11:13 AM me: was going to send you when I am available
Willem: not sure if you got my messages from when you were offline
me: i did
was writing a response
Willem: right well I was just going to lay all my cards on the table
so I needed some time for a proper discussion
so maybe later if that's better
just would like to do it this turn
11:14 AM me: we haven't ended turn yet, so that could be fine
im free in some 7 hours from now
Willem: when do you think you could be around next
right ok
me: do you want to talk to HRE as well?
Willem: I'll speak to you them
then
yes that would be best
me: not sure when they are online though
11:15 AM i'll see if they are around then
Willem: i'm sure you probably know what this is all about anyway though heh
me: well, let's not spoil anything
i've got work to do
Willem: no, should be a fun discussion
ok see you later
me: cya

However, DO NOT end turn. I would really like to see what they say before doing anything.

[Sockboy]

but the OR bonus could still be useful in our other cities (I could go either way ATM)

We'll only get the OR bonus if we convert religion... if we're not planning on spreading Krill's religious thoroughly, I think it's not worth converting. The extra hammers in one city won't offset the turn of anarchy in all cities. the only infra likely to be built in Zingara in the near future is a courthouse anyway (maybe a market/forge if we get currency/MC). If it spreads naturally maybe we can reconsider.

Diplo sounds interesting, but who's recruiting who I wonder Hope it's a good conversation

[ad hoc]

wheels within wheels, it does look like carthage and england are together and by extension egypt. it will be interesting to see what portugal has to say.

military wise i'd like to see some spears at least in a couple of cities, walls are most probably a good idea with no spies and we can always use the extra trade route if we upgrade to castles.

what would be the ETA for self researched construction? if carthage wont give to DIM could we research it and gift to DIM.

[WarriorKnight]

Ok, Portugal wanted to talk about the other tech alliance that is forming. They were invited but they are going to refuse which, by extension, means that we all know about them now.

Currently Egypt/Mali/Carthage/England and Babylon are in. Maya have been asked but they haven't signed the agreement yet. They have asked (or going to ask) Rome in (which, by extension, includes Inca).

Unfortunately, that kinda puts us in a bad situation. That leaves us minimum with AWTA/Byz/Portugal. For us to really have any kind of chance, we need Rome/Inca in with us, have to wait to see what happens there. Hopefully we can get Maya in too, although I think that's kind off a lost cause ATM.

Anyway, we need to get AWTA together and try to get as many people as possible. It's not looking good ATM but we're not out of the race yet.

[WarriorKnight]

So it looks like the communications have started:

Dear WNA,

I've emailed all the people who I think are now definitely on board. Some details still need to be worked out I think with one or two but in principle agreement is there. So welcome everybody! And let's do this!

A couple of priorites we need to cover first.

1. We need a name.

2. We need to convince Incans, Aztecs and hopefully Maya to join us. Maya just teched Metal Casting this turn, so it remains to be seen where they stand with all of us but it needs to be sorted this turn.

3. We need to figure out some goals. Some of us have badly stunted development that we need to get back on track so that is our personal short term goal. To convert completely to a GNP based civ.

4. We have some big problems with techs. Rome and Incans don't have maths and can't be given it by the rest of us. We also can't give monarchy around. So for Rome, Incans, Aztecs, and Byz they need to work out who should tech those.

5. We need to discuss our mutual military defense. Portugal and Rome have now become some of the more securely located civs on the map, but others are now more exposed and isolated to PAT members.

Probably lots of other things to discuss but let's not get ahead of ourselves. We personally don't have as good a relationship as some of you others with Incans, Aztecs and Maya so we will leave that up to those members.

Team Hug.

Mukha & Dantski.

Our response:

WNA,

Sounds good, I'll adress my opinions on the priorities:

1. I'm not good at names, so I'll leave this to someone else. WNA is good if no-one else can think of anything.

2. I think both Inca and Aztec will join us. Maya is currently unknown ATM, but Metal Casting will probably tell us if they are/aren't with us. I'll assume that Inca and Aztec are in and Maya is out for the rest of this message.

3. This probably fits into the next 2 points so I'll discuss it there. We aim to be a techer in this new group, while still being able to contribute units to the cause.

4. This is the main problem. PAT are about to discover the next round of techs while we are still behind. Even if they choose to honour CAN, they won't give it to all of us. It doesn't help that none of us are that good at research yet (as compared to PAT, who are comprised of mostly strong researchers). With that in mind, we need to get some researchers going and for everyone to start supplying GNP in some form, wether it be gold or research. The most important tech that someone gets is currency since then we can share our gold around to everyone. It remains to be seen if Babylon will give the tech to any of us, but someone needs to start researching it so the rest of us can get it anyway. We also need to start researching the other techs that CANT didn't recieve. So I think the important techs ATM are:

Monarchy
Currency
Calendar
Construction
Metal Casting (if Maya aren't in, they have given MC to several PAT members already)

So, I'm not sure what everyone else is Re:GNP, but I think that HRE, ourselves, Byzantium and maybe India could be techers now while everyone else saves gold. Portugal could turn into a techer once they have started to recover a bit. We are saving gold in preperation to research one of them (probably Construction)

5. A Mutual Military Defense is good but we will probably have to attack them before we fall too far behind. While we have the numbers (10v6 is likely at this point) and therefore have the long term advantage, we need to prevent them from gaining a big enough tech lead in the short term. With that in mind, there is a possibility that some civs that aren't researching could attack someone in PAT. I think this is a map of PAT and their neighbours:

Ottomans HRE Portugal
(Egypt) (Carthage) (England)
Byzantium (Maya) (Mali) (Babylon)
India Aztec Inca Rome

Byzantium might need to be careful about a PAT attack, since they are surrounded by PAT members. Otherwise, we all border a PAT member somewhere, so maybe a co-ordinated strike (i.e. everyone attacks at once) could be sucessful. We would all have to attack sometime soon, otherwise they will have the next era of units and it will be too late.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

Enough Talking!
WarriorKnight of A4

I'm kinda worried that Rome isn't on board with us. Then again, I don't really understand the situation over there and we need them so I might be making silly accusations.