RB PBEM #2 - Justinian (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

t66 - Darrell pops up to request his Open Borders.

I accept and then request Monotheism from him. Hmmm, is something a bit screwy here? Maths is showing up in Darrell's "Can't Trade" column of F4 ... I know that in an SP Civ game that means an AI has just traded it from another, but in PBEM#1 I could request techs from Ruff immediately after he'd discovered them. So that either means that there's a mechanical difference between the "Full Tech Trading" and "No Tech Brokering" options, or that Darrell didn't research Maths for himself....!?

Adrianople: Library - Warrior (1t) ... I also hire a Scientist.

Research switched from Drama to Compass, due in 7t at 100%. -19gpt at that level and I only have 109g saved up at the moment, so I'll wait another turn before switching research back on.

Alphabet would be a 4t research project, and I note that Ruff does indeed have the tech already ... so what would I gain? I decide that further consideration is required, and that the new Settler will head SE. Also, if I move the transport Galley to the coast between Const & Adrian, it can pick up Adrian's new Warrior next turn as well as the Settler. I still haven't decided yet though whether it will be heading for the Northern or Southern spot of the island....

Here's something else for me to consider; maybe the right way to generate a Prophet for my shrine is not to spend a long time building a Wonder, but rather to spend a short time building a second cheap Temple in Constantinople, and then run a second Priest. Infact, perhaps a decent longer-term plan would be to aim for Angkor Wat and then use Priest Specialists from my cheap Temples as a source of hammers. Hmmmm.

[Dreylin]

Chatting with Krill to fix the next round of trades and get directions:

Keith: Dreylin, you available for a diplo chat?

me: er, sure
playing the turn...

Keith: I guessed.
I just wanted to say, Darrell forwarded me CoL

me: Cool

Keith: what was the deal we had again?

me: I've had IW & Poly from him

Keith: cool

me: the 50b or 25g balance is still outstanding

Keith: ok
I have HBR available if you want it
so just a reminder for you

me: you also have MC

Keith: yup

me: but I have nothing to trade at the moment

Keith: was wondering what you were going to tech next, actually.
I'm currently saving gold

me: Compass is dialed up

Keith: nice
MC for Compass trade sound OK for you?
that should cover the 50 beaker debt as well

me: Was just about to propose the same thing
Looks like it'll be due ~t75

Keith: sounds solid

me: although I'm not sure how getting my hands on Currency will affect that

Keith: if you have foreign trade routes, probably knock about turn or two off, no more than that

me: Cool

Keith: btw
You got contact with Yaz?

me: not yet

Keith: ok
little heads up for you

me: should have in the next ~5t

Keith: but his capital straddles a 1 tile wide peninsula
quickest way to meet me is though there
so stick to the north of the continent that holds Ruff and Yaz

me: OK cool
thanks for the directions

Keith: np

[Dreylin]

t67 - Maths comes in from Darrell (yay!), request Currency from SL.

Constantinople: Settler - Conf. Temple
Thessalonica: Buddhist Temple - Worker
Adrianople: Warrior - Barracks

Civics switch to Organised Religion.

Thessa's border expansion allows Antioch's Fish to be netted a turn early, and I start working it right away. The WB for the Clams is delayed by 2t, but the city won't grow in that time, so only lose 1t of working them. The Copper Mine was completed last turn, and I get the road down to 1t from completion. I don't intend to complete the road until absolutely necessary, so I can run out a couple more MP Warriors.

NW Chariot goes up against the Barb in the forest @78% and withdraws!? Barb is at 8hp, Chariot at 15hp; as long as the Barb doesn't promote, he should be fine.

New Settler/Warrior pair set off for the SE landmass ... I think I'll found the nearer city spot first, and that way I can get Workers down to improve the site faster.

Compass due in 6t.

[Dreylin]

You probably know this already, but I got the following from SL this morning:

Hey Dreylin,

I was just wondering if you fancied lining up a trade for the next round of techs? I am going to head for Calendar. What are you going for?

Yaz requested writing this turn and so I sent it along.

I am considering founding a city on my Iron hill - it will compete for the clams at your copper location though... It isn't a top priority for me though but I thought it would be prudent to let you know. I also plan another city 3S of your copper location to pick up the fish. This city will likely be founded next.

I was wondering if you had considered the Alphabet - Settler trade I proposed some more?

All the best,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

OK, WTF!?!?!? I thought we'd negotiated for this area ... I made concessions to get Antioch and now he tells me that he's going to crush it with culture from two directions!?

Grrrrrrrrrrrr*#@*($^!*##!^&@^#&#*&!&#%(#(#*)#!&)*#^)!#.

Aaaaand breathe.

So for perspective, let's have a look at the area in question (after EOT when the borders have expanded):


Seriously though, I didn't think that I was just negotiating for the single tile that Antioch is sitting on, but also the tiles to the South. It's not like he didn't know exactly what that would do to his chances of netting those Fish, nor that my site claimed the Clams.

OTOH, I don't want to provoke a war over this, nor do I want to offer up further concessions to get him to back off from the area.

After reflection, I decide to take the following approach:

1) express my dismay to find out about this.
2) point out that it really does go back on our previous negotiations/agreement.

(This is the "make him feel guilty" part of the e-mail)

3) state that "in the interests of friendship" I'm willing to move forward.
4) do not ask him to either reconsider his settlement intentions, nor ask for concessions.

(The "make him feel like he owes something" part)

5) a very reasonable and mutually beneficial offer to extend our NAP.
6) take him up on his offer of a Calendar trade and offer terms.

(Capitalise on his guilt to ensure his agreement)

7) end on a jokey/friendly note.

(Make sure he feels like there's no harm done)

So here's my reply:

Sitting Bull,

Well I can't say I'm particularly happy to be hearing about either of your intended city sites this long after we signed our agreement for settling rights in this area. If you made known your desire to settle these two locations at the time, I suspect the negotiations for the settling of Antioch would have gone very differently ... I doubt I would have offered the concessions I did just to expose the city to the 2-way cultural crush which will result from these new cities of yours. Having said that; this is the situation we are in now, and in the interests of cooperating with my neighbour I won't make any more fuss about it.

I would, however, like to ask that we extend our NAP ... the end of which is currently approaching. This time, rather than setting a definite ending date/turn, I propose that we make it a perpetual NAP with a definied cool-down period. I would suggest the cool-down be 10t, and at least a minimum length of t100 - though I'm happy to negotiate that longer if you'd prefer.

My next research target is Compass, and I'm happy to line up a trade of that for Calendar. That leaves a 50b difference in my favour which we could settle up with cash, however I do still owe you a second Missionary though; would you consider cancelling that obligation in lieu of those beakers?

As for the Alphabet - Settler deal; I do expect to accept this at some point in the near future, however I don't know yet where I will be able to fit the build into my coming plans. To be honest, knowing you intend to plonk a city down on my borders doesn't give me much incentive to rush the deal through.... 9-)

Cheers,

Dreylinian I.

I think this does a decent job of accomplishing my goals. There's still a lot of space for me to settle, and I want to be able to concentrate on that, so extending the NAP is pretty important. I'd also like for it to require effort to cancel, rather than effort to continue, so the terms change is probably the bigger deal here.

I'd also really like to not owe him the second Missionary right now so I can concentrate on generating them for myself. Since he now has both Meditation and Monotheism, generating his own should be pretty straightforward.

Alphabet as a 4t tech is probably still worth the cost of a Settler, particularly as it sits between me and a potential Philosophy bulb - although I honestly expect SL to trigger that one himself, I still hold out a vague hope and would love to have the jump on Angkor Wat.


On another note; I have been intending to put Moai Statues into Antioch, and will certainly be adding a Hippodrome, so it should be able to defend itself culturally for the most part, and may even threaten SL's city.

[Dreylin]

Hmmm, well maybe I hit a bit further down the "make him feel guilty" scale than I'd originally intended, but I did at least get the two things I wanted - the extended NAP and out of my Missionary debt.

Hi Dreylinian I,

My apologies for causing you upset over the settling matter - my intentions are not to pile culture into those 2 cities and put pressure on Antioch - more make the best of the remaining tiles in the area. I think you are slightly amiss to assume that I wouldn't found any more cities in that direction although I also admit that for me to suddenly suggest two sites pressuring yours is also not in our best interests.

Let me start the paragraph from my last mail regarding the cities again:

I would like to negotiate two possible sites I would like to found cities on in the region of Antioch. These are: 3S of Antioch and on the iron to the SW of Antioch. My preferred site would be the 3S one since this competes less with Antioch and the borders of both cities should reach a natural equilibrium that doesn't impinge too greatly on one another. (ie - not into 1st ring).

The 2nd site is probably more contentious but, of less importance - I am willing to forget about this site for now - In many turns time once there is a lot of historical culture present, I reserve the right to discuss this location with you once again but for now - please consider this site forgotten about until a later date.

I hope this is a much better approach to the settling of the area and once again, I apologise for causing you upset.

On the issue of the NAP: Of course - extending our NAP was something I was planning on doing anyway so that isn't a problem at all. I am happy to enter into a perpetual NAP but, I would be more comfortable with a 15t cool down if that is something you would consider? I know this is quick speed but 10t isn't that long to muster anything better than my cardboard defence! :-)

Penultimately, tech trades: Calendar for Compass sounds good. I am happy to pay for the 50 beakers in gold or we can write the missionary off - I'll leave that decision up to you.

Lastly - Alphabet for a Settler - I would still like this to happen - obviously I have a more immediate use for a settler than you do for alphabet so I am probably keener than you to complete it quickly. I do not intend on using the settler to found a city on our mainland but on the island to the SE of The Oval. I hope this gives the reassurance to complete the deal.

Cheers,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

Sitting Bull,

Your cardboard defenses!? At least you're using Dog Soldiers; my cardboard defense is made of Warriors ... but don't get any ideas, OK? 9-) 15t NAP expiry is fine by me.

For the Cal/Com trade I would like to write off the Missionary; and I'll certainly work on when I can get you the Settler for Alphabet ... but no immediate promises on timing, OK?

I guess that I had assumed during our settling discussions that you were building your dotmap in light of my proposed positioning of Antioch, rather than coming back to fill in the space later. As I said though, we are where we are and I accept that you need to make the most of the space available. In the interests of full disclosure; I intend to put the Moai Statues into Antioch, so it may be your city that has trouble with cultural pressure at the start.

Cheers,

Dreylinian I.

[Dreylin]

t68 - Currency arrives from SL ... Compass in 5t @100%.

Barb suicided on NW Chariot during inter-turn bringing it up to 2xp ... woohoo! It retreats to heal.

Whip Library into Nicaea. I decide to hire a Scientist for 2t in Const while waiting for the second Temple to complete - that will contaminate the Priest pool, but not by more than 10% and a Scientist wouldn't be a disaster - Great Person now due in 7t.

Western explorer reaches the edges of Ruff's land, as his WB reaches the borders on Antioch. I offer Open Borders, particularly as I need the additional Trade Routes now I have Currency.

[Dreylin]

t69 - Dude.

Adrianople: Barracks - Chariot (may as well have another mobile guard)
Nicaea: Library - Buddhist Missionary (for new city)

Exploring Galley will enter Ruff's borders next turn. Fudd wanders back North on the island, while Duck Season (NW Chariot) settles down to heal.

With Japanese trade routes in, Compass research time is now down to 3t.

[Dreylin]

Message from SL:

Hey Dreylinian,

Thanks for the heads up on the culture. Muchly appreciated.

Do you have an eta from Yaz for Monarchy? I am going to be looking at my civics shortly and wanted to know when HR is likely to be in play?

Ditching the missionary is fine and I look forward to completing the Alphabet - Settler trade with you.

Cheers,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

PS: sorry for the rushed reply - I am silly busy at work atm - been working well into the evenings and playing the save in the mornings. I'll hopefully be in a better routine as of next week once a deadline passes.

I'll ping Yaz next time I see him online and then get back to SL.

[Dreylin]

Caught Yaz online and grabbed him for a chat:

me: Hey Yaz, how's things?

yazilliclick: Things are good Wassup?

me: Well, I've got my boat coming over to your island
I think I'm getting to Ruff's capital pretty soon and wanted to make sure I didn't get caught in the crossfire!

yazilliclick: haha well you're safe there as my troops are backing away

me: oh dear, didn't manage to break through his defenses, eh?

yazilliclick: nope. With his traits his archer spam is just a bit too much to keep pace with. Plus 3 of darrell's galleys just returned and I'm betting they have troops about to unload near my cities

me: BTW, that wasn't meant to be a Canadian "eh", just a questioning tending to the sentence.

yazilliclick: Coupled with construction in 2-3 turns things look bad
Canadian eh? 'eh' is part of the language, more people need to use it. It's awesome

me: yeah, sounds like the tide may have turned
heh
You going to try and get peace, or keep on fighting?

yazilliclick: Yup, oh well. Hopefully you and krill do better against the three of em
oh I'll not be making peace with ruff and darrell won't make peace unless I do

me: I'm sure Krill's doing what I am: staying out of it and spamming cities

yazilliclick: Somewhat at least. He actually negotiated for some nice settling rights from darrell for use of his copper to hold me off.
Has a nice island up north with 3 gold and 2 fish with his name on it

me: Ah, so that's what went on
Urgh
I've barely even spotted a happiness resource!?

yazilliclick: hehe yeah they're not too common

me: Did you get CoL from SL yet?

yazilliclick: nope

me: ah
would it not let you request it, or did he not release it yet?

yazilliclick: I can request it, thought I did but maybe I forgot

me: Well I asked him to pass it to you, so just make sure you request it next turn
How's Monarchy going?

yazilliclick: 2-3 turns

me: cool
I might even have met you by then!

yazilliclick: That would be something

me: Krill was giving me directions to get to him fast ... said I should head through your Capital or something

yazilliclick: Yeah you'll want to take the north coast

me: Cool

yazilliclick: hopefully it's still there when you get there

me: I guess there must be another route since I met Darrell's WB a couple of turns ago
oh, things that bad?

yazilliclick: Yeah south is longer, much much longer even if you couldn't go through my capital
Won't know how bad until I see what darrell drops off

me: sure
Well good luck with that!

yazilliclick: Thanks! Good luck not getting lost

me: hehe
done that once already, so now I'm listening to all the advice I'm getting

yazilliclick: there's a map for you. It doesn't however show the large bunch of land to Ruff's south there.
Should have charged a toll for going through my cap considering how big a shortcut it is :P

me: Which way up does the map go?

yazilliclick: That's ruff's capital on the right there you can see.

me: Oh, it is NS?
gosh

yazilliclick: yeah

me: and your Cap next to the Rice?

yazilliclick: yeah
So basically it's in the exact spot you'd want to cross quickly

me: Wow, Jungle!

yazilliclick: yeah ;(

me: Hah, if you see my mainland
you'd love the greenness of yours too!

yazilliclick: Well the problem with ours is that greeness was right between us and we were so close. Guess that's why ruff started the first fight. He wanted to settle 2xSE 2xE of my cap on the hill there.
And north of me is rather useless.

me: Yeah, I see that would offend you
BTW, thanks for the map!
and if you do want to charge a toll for me to pass, I'm sure I'd be willing to pay
(after all, I get Trade Routes from you with OB)

yazilliclick: :P
Will think about it when you get around to me hehe

me: Cool

Here's the map Yaz sent:


Going to need to consider it closely with the game open and work out how the relative latitudes line up with my land. Right now my Galley is just in the fog off the NE of Ruff's Capital there.

[Dreylin]

Oh, and my quick note to SL:

Sitting Bull,

No worries, just because I'm not working at the moment doesn't mean I've forgotten what it's like to have a job! 9-)

Managed to nab Yaz in chat this afternoon and he estimated 2-3t left on Monarchy, and that seems consistent with his previous estimate. Sounds like the tide has turned on the battle and he's expecting an attack from Darrell shortly.

Cheers,

Dreylinian I.