[SPOILERS] Magic Science and Mr. Cairo in Pitboss 40

[Magic Science]

Other players and dedlurkers of other players, stay out of this thread! Thank you!

[Mr. Cairo]

Hi there, dedlurker checking in. I've never actually played a game here on RB with a teammember or a dedlurker, so idk what is the "done thing" here, but I'll do my best to give advice.

Let's start with the basics, since we're going with a snake pick, what are your thoughts on civs/leaders?

Oh, and one more thing, how familiar are you with the RtR mod?

[Magic Science]

Hello Mr. Cairo. Any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated, and don’t be afraid to tell me when I am completely wrong about things. I will do my best to keep you updated with turn reports as the game progresses, and we can see how this team works out.
About leaders and civilizations, here are my current thoughts.

Leaders
I want a leader who is both good and somewhat simple to use. I don’t trust myself to effectively use anything too complicated. That means that I don’t want a Spiritual or Philosophical leader. Also, from what I have seen while lurking, Realms Beyond maps tend to be quite lush (with plenty of rivers and happiness resources), so I don’t think a Financial or Charismatic leader would be a good choice either.
What seems good to me is a leader with one early game expansion trait and one later game economic trait. I am also interested in getting a leader with Protective or Aggressive to deter aggression.
With all of that in mind, the leaders that I am most considering now are Agg/Pro Tokugawa, Imp/Org Julius Caesar, and Exp/Org Mehmed II, although that list is by no means final. I am very open to changing my mind or having you change my mind before the game starts.

Civilizations
Starting techs that match my start will be important, so I can’t be too sure about what civilizations I want yet. However, I do have some ideas. Currently I am thinking about Inca, Zulu, China, and India.

My Rebalance the Realms mod experience is limited. I have read the changelog for the version we are using, and I have read quite a few reports of other Pitboss games that used it, but the only game I have ever played with it is the singleplayer one I am doing now.

Lastly, I would like your advice about what I should pick first, a leader or a civ.

[Mr. Cairo]

Some thoughts on your thoughts regarding leaders/civs:
Toku is a pretty solid choice, PRO is I think the best trait in RtR, and AGG probably only a bit behind. ORG is a great eco trait that requires no actual work to use, and between EXP and IMP I have a personal preference for EXP since my expanding tends to outpace my tile improving, but objectively, IMP is probably better.

Expect competition for all of those choices, especially Inca and India. Perhaps not as much for the Zulu, since it appears to me as though after an initial over-estimation of the power of an AGG Zulu in RtR RB has flopped back in other direction, and are potentially under-valuing it.
Obviously Toku + either of Inca or Zulu would be a great combo, but unless you're sixth in the pick order and get very lucky, you're unlikely to be able to get either combo.

I've never actually participated in a snake pick, but I think the general consensus (that I agree with) is leader first, since traits tend to have a much greater impact than UUs or UBs. None of the UUs or UBs are too OP in RtR, and with only 6 players, there'll be plenty of civs with good starting tech available no matter when you end up picking your civ.

That being said, if you get first pick, I would advise you to grab the Inca. There are more than six PRO leaders, so you're guaranteed to get half-price Terraces, which are so very good.

[Commodore]

Here's your start. Don't trust the fog.
   

[Magic Science]

Thank you, Commodore, that was very fast!
I will try a few sims to the completion of my first settler with different combos to get an idea of what is good. Just looking at it, I think that it might be a good idea to ignore the crabs for a little while, and farming the sugar could be a good idea. I should hopefully report back soon!

Some thoughts on your thoughts regarding leaders/civs:
Toku is a pretty solid choice, PRO is I think the best trait in RtR, and AGG probably only a bit behind. ORG is a great eco trait that requires no actual work to use, and between EXP and IMP I have a personal preference for EXP since my expanding tends to outpace my tile improving, but objectively, IMP is probably better.

Expect competition for all of those choices, especially Inca and India. Perhaps not as much for the Zulu, since it appears to me as though after an initial over-estimation of the power of an AGG Zulu in RtR RB has flopped back in other direction, and are potentially under-valuing it.
Obviously Toku + either of Inca or Zulu would be a great combo, but unless you're sixth in the pick order and get very lucky, you're unlikely to be able to get either combo.

I've never actually participated in a snake pick, but I think the general consensus (that I agree with) is leader first, since traits tend to have a much greater impact than UUs or UBs. None of the UUs or UBs are too OP in RtR, and with only 6 players, there'll be plenty of civs with good starting tech available no matter when you end up picking your civ.

That being said, if you get first pick, I would advise you to grab the Inca. There are more than six PRO leaders, so you're guaranteed to get half-price Terraces, which are so very good.

Well, it is good to see that I am at least going in the right direction with my ideas. If you haven’t seen yet, we are in the fourth spot in the snake pick, which kind of sucks. We can’t plan on synergy, and we might not get our top picks either. I guess that it isn’t too bad in such a small snake pick, though.

EDIT: Quick question, is there any way for me to tell what the tech costs will be for simming before the game starts? I believe that it is based on map size, and I don't think that there is a way to know that yet.

[Mr. Cairo]

There's plenty of synergy available with only 6 players. And we might get lucky and the players before us pick Inca and India first to give us a good pick of a leader. Or they all go leader first and we can nab Inca.

Commodore said the map size in the main thread, so I guess you have all you need for a sim, although comm might give us all a sim made using GJs tool

Edit: on the start I think I agree with ignoring the crabs tp begin with, one seafood resource isn't enough to pick a fishing civ. A civ with agriculture would be ideal, letting us go for bw right out the gate. There's a lot of food and forests here to power out settlers with chops and whips

[Magic Science]

Alright, I did some rough sims. I used Tokugawa (a functionally blank leader for this activity) for all of them, I settled in place in all of them, and I used a standard sized map in all of them (which turned out to be correct). 
Mr. Cairo, I haven’t ever simmed or tried to cooperate with a teammate like this before, so if you see anything I can improve in the process let me know. Also, Commodore, my respect for Civ 4 mapmakers greatly increased during the course of this activity. DRAWING RIVERS IS SO ANNOYING!

India, take one:
Tech path: Agriculture turn 9, Hunting turn 18, Mining turn 25, then tech Bronze Working
Build path: I know it was Fast Worker, then warrior, then settler, but forgot to write down the exact turns.
Improvement path: I forgot to write this information down for this one, but I believe that it was corn, then sugar, then sheep, then roads.
End state: On Turn 30, I had 2 citizens in Delhi and one in just-planted Bombay, working a pastured sheep, farmed corn, and farmed sugar. A warrior guards Bombay, which is located 3 tiles south of Delhi (it could have been planted either one west or one east of there on the same turn) I could have planted in a location to the northwest (that shares the sheep) in about the same timeframe, depending on the lay of the land in the fog.
Conclusion: I think that India, despite its awful starting techs, can work with this start, but it needs to ignore Fishing for a little while. The two main blemishes on the plan are that the fact that my Fast Workers don’t make much use of Mobility in it and that my second city isn’t settled to claim a strategic resource. The first part could possibly be improved, but the second part does worry me. However, I did the math and I am pretty sure that I could have another settler out to claim copper (wherever it is) by Turn 44.

Zulu, take one:
Tech path: Mining turn 8, Bronze Working turn 22, The Wheel turn 30, then tech Fishing
Build path: worker turn 12, warrior turn 19, second worker turn 25, settler turn 31,
Improvement path: corn farm turn 16, sheep pasture turn 21, chop turn 26, chop turn 28, sugar farm turn 30, road 31, road 32
End state: I am in a very similar position to India, although on Turn 32. 2 citizens in Ulundi, 1 in uMgungundlovu, working improved sheep, sugar, and corn. However, the Zulu have a road between the cities, more relevant techs, an extra worker, are in slavery, and they could have settled for copper somewhere.
Conclusion: The Zulu are much better than India for this start, but that is not a surprise, considering their starting techs. They are also more secure, which I like. The question is if India’s Fast Workers could pull ahead of the Zulu’s already-better snowball later. In any case, the Zulu would clearly be an excellent fit for this start.

China, take one:
Note: I realized that China could pull off basically the same start as the Zulu did above by researching Hunting and then Bronze Wokring, and I didn’t feel like I needed to replay that opening, so I tried something different with China this time.
Tech path: Bronze Working turn 15, Hunting turn 24, The Wheel turn 32, start Fishing
Build path: Worker turn 12, warrior turn ? (forgot to record it), worker turn 23, settler turn 33
Improvement path: corn farm turn 16, chop turn 20, sugar farm turn 25, sheep turn 27, chop turn 29, chop turn 31, road turn 32, road turn 33.
End state: Similar to before, on turn 34 I have Beijing with 2 pop, Shanghai 3 tiles south with a connecting road and one pop, one warrior, and two workers. I could also have settled elsewhere for copper.
Conclusion: I feel like I didn’t play this one very well, I think that I could make it significantly better with more iterations. In any case, China could definitely work for this start too. I think that China would be a good pick with Exp or Imp because it can start getting bonus hammers on whips and chops so soon after the start of the game.

Inca, take one:
Tech path: Mining turn 8, Bronze Working turn 23, start Hunting
Build path: worker turn 12, quechua turn 19,
Improvement path: corn farm turn 16, sugar farm turn 21, chop turn 25, chop turn
End state: turn 28, Cuzco with two pop, Tiwanku with 1, only corn and sugar improved, but in Slavery.
Conclusion: I will have to try some more iterations as the Inca, because I again think that this could be improved, and there are a few more opening that I think could be viable. The Inca did alright, although China and Zulu seem to have done better. I also think that if we want a religion, the Inca are what we should try. It wouldn’t be as fast of an opening (obviously), but it would still be bearable. I’m not sure that I want a religion that much, though.
 
So, what do you think? Is there any recurring error throughout the sims that I should try to avoid in the game? Also, how much do you think we should value getting a strategic resource hooked up quickly?
Lastly, I have another question: what do you think of Agg as an economic trait? Could it fill the role of a mid/late-game economic trait?

[Mr. Cairo]

AGG can be a good economic trait when coupled with the zulu, but by itself it's not as good as ORG or FIN.

When I sim I just play the turns a bunch of times in a row until I get something I like. I don't do the spreadsheets or anything like that. 
If you send me your sim save I can try it out, but it looks good to me. I also prefer to get two workers before a settler.

[Magic Science]

Here are the sim saves. All I did was roll standard maps with different combos and edit my capital to match the start Commodore showed us. While I am at it, how about a test to see if I can figure out how to post images on this site properly... (image taken from an unrelated singleplayer game of mine)
   

  TokuIndia Sim!.zip (Size: 6.83 KB / Downloads: 0)

  TokuZulu Sim Start.zip (Size: 7.66 KB / Downloads: 0)

  TokuChin Sim Start.zip (Size: 7.02 KB / Downloads: 0)

  TokuInca Sim Start.zip (Size: 6.96 KB / Downloads: 0)