[SPOILERS] Magic Science and Mr. Cairo in Pitboss 40

[Hollybombay]

got a dotmap going?

[Magic Science]

I have some more topics to discuss.

Foreign Policy: I expect to begin discovering other players soon. There are two questions related to other players that I have been considering. One, how do we allocate espionage points? For example, do we want to have graphs on everyone, or graphs and more information on neighbors and nothing on non-neighbors? I think that having graphs on everyone is best. In such a small game, non-neighbors are probably not that far away, so their statistics are still important to know for making informed decisions. Research and city visibility is nice, but we can try to make up for that with Cloak and Dagger tracking and a sentry and scouting network.

Two, if we see the borders of a player we haven’t met yet in the fog, should we meet them? This situation may not come up, but I want to have thought about it in advance if it does. I think that it varies case by case, but in general I think it is probably a good idea to not meet them. Not being able to accumulate espionage is not much of a loss, we can’t even open borders for trade routes yet, and I think that the advantage of being able to see into a rival’s capital for Cloak and Dagger purposes is not very large. On the other hand, they won’t know to push expansion and military in our direction if they haven’t met us yet. Do we really want SHAKA OF ROME to know where we are?

Binary Research: I have been lurking around Realms Beyond long enough to know what binary research is and why it is a good idea. What I am wondering is, how much does it really matter this early? I ask because I have run into situations in my sims where running maximum gold and then maximum research would get a tech a turn later then just lowering the slider 10%, and build queues would be more inefficient if we get that tech a turn later. How much are those few beakers we could gain worth?

Phase Three: I have been doing a bunch of sims to try to figure out a course of action past Turn 30, and I have a lot of ideas on the matter. I have just declined to post an extended micro plan for discussion because I expect that it would be rendered useless after Copper appears. However, we will have visibility on Copper next turn, and I will post some more about this after that.

Lastly,

got a dotmap going?

Hello Hollybombay, you have the honor of being the first lurker to post in our thread! Thank you for your help in the honorable postcount war! I am sorry to disappoint you, but I don't have much of a dotmap going yet. I can't confidently place dots near the rice and corn in the west or the deer in the east until we reveal some more tiles. When I do get a dotmap going, I will be sure to post it, and if you have any more questions now or in the future, feel free to ask.

[Mr. Cairo]

I have some more topics to discuss.

Foreign Policy: I expect to begin discovering other players soon. There are two questions related to other players that I have been considering. One, how do we allocate espionage points? For example, do we want to have graphs on everyone, or graphs and more information on neighbors and nothing on non-neighbors? I think that having graphs on everyone is best. In such a small game, non-neighbors are probably not that far away, so their statistics are still important to know for making informed decisions. Research and city visibility is nice, but we can try to make up for that with Cloak and Dagger tracking and a sentry and scouting network.

Yes, graphs first, it's also a useful indicator of a neighbors priorities if they continue to put EP into us after they've got graphs, so going to the magic number of 43 Ep in everyone we meet first is probably the way to go.

Two, if we see the borders of a player we haven’t met yet in the fog, should we meet them? This situation may not come up, but I want to have thought about it in advance if it does. I think that it varies case by case, but in general I think it is probably a good idea to not meet them. Not being able to accumulate espionage is not much of a loss, we can’t even open borders for trade routes yet, and I think that the advantage of being able to see into a rival’s capital for Cloak and Dagger purposes is not very large. On the other hand, they won’t know to push expansion and military in our direction if they haven’t met us yet. Do we really want SHAKA OF ROME to know where we are?

I'm not sure how important this is, but yeah, if we see purple borders in the fog, we should leave those alone.

Binary Research: I have been lurking around Realms Beyond long enough to know what binary research is and why it is a good idea. What I am wondering is, how much does it really matter this early? I ask because I have run into situations in my sims where running maximum gold and then maximum research would get a tech a turn later then just lowering the slider 10%, and build queues would be more inefficient if we get that tech a turn later. How much are those few beakers we could gain worth?

Not at this point it isn't, binary research is most relevant once we have modifiers (libraries, markets, academy, etc.) Right now we might lose a few beakers to rounding errors, but if running non-binary research gets techs earlier and fits better with your sims, then we should definitely do that.

Phase Three: I have been doing a bunch of sims to try to figure out a course of action past Turn 30, and I have a lot of ideas on the matter. I have just declined to post an extended micro plan for discussion because I expect that it would be rendered useless after Copper appears. However, we will have visibility on Copper next turn, and I will post some more about this after that.

Good call, the location of copper will mean a lot.


As for dot-maps (Hi, Hollybombay), we need to do some more exploring, so far what we've uncovered isn't exactly the best looking land. Is there any room for squeezing in another scout or two in your plans Magic Science?

[Magic Science]

Turn 21 – 3160 BC
   
Quite a few things happened this turn. For one, we discovered Bronze Working (started Hunting) and found our copper! As the image shows, there is one source directly east of Cuzco, and another more distant one to the southwest. As I predicted in my previous post, this discovery means that the simming I was doing is now mostly out of date. In a good way, though. I will try to come up with a new plan that accounts for Cuzco’s copper.
   
Meanwhile, Moncacht-Ape moved as planned. He found a wines resource on a plains hill. I want to move him northwest, then west, but the lion seen in the first image may move closer and prevent that plan.

There was some more Cloak and Dagger to do this turn too. Coeurva grew to size three, and shallow_thought and superdeath got Bronze Working along with us, as I predicted. I expect Coeurva and Charriu to get Bronze Working next turn or the turn after next.

Lastly, I have prepared a sim that is fully updated with copper and recently scouted terrain. If you have the time to try out some sims of your own, that would be great.

  Mao of Inca Sim Start (2).zip (Size: 28.69 KB / Downloads: 1)

[Magic Science]

Turn 22 – 3120 BC
   
The game seems to be picking up a bit, because quite a few interesting things happened this turn too. To start off with, we met superdeath this turn. Or, more accurately, he met us. His scout appeared by Cuzco. I am worried that he might try to choke us by sitting his scout on our corn or sugar. However, if he does then I think that we could deal with it. Next turn the worst he could do is sit on the sugar, which would mean that we would have to work the sheep instead of the sugar. However, that would not delay our growth to size three, and we would then finish Quechua One at the end of that turn to chase off his scout before he can actually delay us. Still, I sincerely hope that it doesn’t happen.  Besides that worry about superdeath, I am going to keep an eye on his espionage allocation to see if he meets anyone else.
   
The lion was not visible, so I moved Moncacht-Ape as planned…right into the jaws of another lion (and he found another jungle-covered banana). He has odds to win, but who knows what will happen. Hopefully he survives. I want to see more of that riverside corn area.

There was also some Cloak and Dagger stuff to do this turn. Coeurva and Charriu got Bronze Working, and Charriu and RFS-81 grew one population.

Lastly, Mr. Cairo, we could certainly fit in a scout or a quechua intended to scout into the plan. I should have a plan posted for your consideration soon.

[Magic Science]

Turn 23 – 3080 BC
This was kind of a scary turn to join the game for. Between Moncacht-Ape fighting the lion and Superdeath’s scout appearing by Cuzco, there was a chance for things to go fairly badly wrong this turn. Luckily, it was all fine.
   
Superdeath did NOT try to choke us! His scout (which is nameless) could still turn around and go to the sugar farm next turn, but Quechua One will finish and could deal with that. The micro in and around Cuzco is still going according to plan.
   
Moncacht-Ape survived! He wasn’t even injured very badly, only to 68/100 health. See, just because he doesn’t like to fight doesn’t mean he isn’t tough! I have grown rather attached to Moncacht-Ape, I hope that he survives a while longer. I decided for him to heal in place one turn, because, if my understanding of the combat math is correct, with 78/100 health he will have odds to win against a lion if he is standing unfortified on a forest, while with 68/100 the lion would be favored. Next turn he will proceed one tile northwest, and fog gazing indicates that he can go one tile north to a grassland forest hill after that.

Lastly, there was no wider-world Cloak and Dagger to do this turn, but Superdeath did put 4 espionage points on us. That means that he has probably only met us, although maybe he has met someone else and already has graphs on them.

[Mr. Cairo]

well, everything looks good, I certainly wasn't expecting a scout choke in a greenies game.

Good job Moncacht-Ape! Losing that first scout is always crappy, let's hope he lives for a lot longer.

I'll probably do some sims tomorrow, and while I'm at it try and figure out a good spot for a third city.

[Magic Science]

Turn 24- 3040
   
Moncacht-Ape finished healing to 78/100 health, and the surrounding terrain was still clear of animals, so he moved northwest into the jungle. As the image shows, he found some interesting tiles: a forested corn and a forested dye! Unnatural tiles! Those would have been very nice to have at the start (a nine-turn worker!), although when we settle a city over there those forests will just be chopped down to make room for improvements. The corn is on fresh water, and fog gazing indicates that it is being irrigated by a lake tile to the north. I still plan to move Moncacht-Ape one tile north next turn. He is going to finish revealing the riverside corn area, and then I think he will head to the west to do some longer distance scouting, unless you have another idea.

Back at Cuzco, we finished Quechua One. He moved to the sugar farm. I have realized that we haven’t really discussed where to move our Quechuas as part of the plan. I think that Quechua One should move one tile south of the sugar farm, stay there, and then he can garrison Sidon when it is founded.

I'll probably do some sims tomorrow, and while I'm at it try and figure out a good spot for a third city.

I have done a few sims and I am nearly ready to post my plan for Phase Three. I should be able to finish it today unless I end up being super busy (which is possible). Right now the spots I am considering for the third city are either two tiles west of the sheep or directly between the silver and the wheat in the south, although it may turn out that a spot over by the riverside corn is good.

[Magic Science]

Turn 25 – 3000 BC
I forgot to take any screenshots this turn, sorry, but everything proceeded as planned. I started Settler One, moved Quechua One south, Worker One north, and Moncacht-Ape north. He proved my fog gazing in regards to that lake correct, but he found nothing else of interest. Next turn he will go one tile northeast to find out more about the riverside corn region.

However, this turn was the turn that everyone got their land points from their capital’s second ring tiles, so there was some Cloak and Dagger work to do. As far as I can tell, no one else got any point increases this turn that weren’t land points, with the exception of RFS-81, who grew to size 4 and got points for that. Also, amusingly, I noticed that Superdeath’s capital is named “To Be Decided.” I’m not sure if he really isn’t sure what to name his capital or if that name is part of some weird naming scheme.

We need to have at least a partial plan extension by Turn 28, because Turn 28 is when we need to decide what to research after Hunting. I think that we should head to Pottery next, but the question I have is: should we research Fishing, The Wheel, then Pottery, or just The Wheel, then Pottery? I would like your opinion on that matter. I will be back with more detailed thoughts about that and a potential Phase Three plan later today, it looks like I should have time for it.

[Magic Science]

Alright, so I have done a bunch of sims and I have a rough plan for Phase Three. I am not totally happy with it, but we don’t have very much time left to decide, so we need to start discussing this. As a reminder, Phases One and Two were:

Turn 0: Settle in place, start building a worker and researching Mining while working a grassland forest hill.
Turn 5: Switch to working the grassland hill sheep.
Turn 8: Mining done. Start researching Bronze Working.
Turn 10: Worker One done. Worker One starts farming the corn. The capital works the corn tile and starts building a quechua.
Turn 14: Corn farm done.
Turn 15: Worker One starts farming the sugar.
Turn 16: The capital has grown, stops building the quechua and starts building Worker Two while working the corn and grassland hill sheep.
Turn 19: Sugar farm done.

T20: move Worker 1 to forested grassland hill 1W of Sugar
T21: BW done, Worker 1 starts mining the hill.
T22: Worker 2 done, send to join worker 1
T23: Worker 2 starts mining as well
T24: Quecha 1 finishes, start Quecha 2
T25: Cuzco grows to size 3, start Settler 1, Mine finishes (sending the forest's 20h to Cuzco), 1 of the workers is free, send it 1N to the forest there (1S of Sheep).
T26: That worker starts chopping, other worker joins it
T27: Together, both workers finish the chop (Settler 1 now on course to finish T30)

My theoretical Phase Three is:
Turn 28: Worker One to the sheep, Worker Two to Cuzco. Hunting done, start researching Fishing.
Turn 29: Worker One starts pasturing. Worker Two to the copper east of Cuzco.
Turn 30: Settler One done, walks one south, then one southwest. Revolt to Slavery. Worker Two mines the copper.
Turn 31: Settler One walks one south, founds Sidon. Sidon works the sugar farm, Cuzco works the corn farm, grassland mine, and the unimproved sheep. Sidon builds a Quechua, Cuzco resumes a Quechua.
Turn 32: Pasture done. Cuzco works the sheep pasture, grassland mine, and sugar farm. Sidon works the corn farm.
Turn 33: Copper mine done. Quechua Two done. Fishing done, start The Wheel. Worker One walks one northeast. Cuzco works the copper mine, sugar farm, and sheep pasture while building a workboat.
Turn 34: Worker One starts chopping. Worker Two runs to the grassland hill two south of Cuzco.
Turn 35: Sidon grows. Sidon works the corn farm and the grassland mine one west, one southwest of Cuzco while building a worker. Worker Two starts mining.
Turn 36: Cuzco grows, workboat done. Cuzco starts Settler Two and works the corn farm, copper mine, sheep pasture, and sugar farm. Sidon now works a floodplains instead of the corn farm. Worker One done chopping.
Turn 37: Worker One runs one tile southeast.
Turn 38: Single-whip in Sidon. Continue working the grassland mine one west, one southwest of Cuzco. Worker One runs to the copper.
Turn 39: The Wheel done, start Pottery. Single-whip in Cuzco. Worker Three done in Sidon, he runs one south and roads. Sidon resumes a Quechua and works the mine still. Worker One roads the copper. Worker Two roads one south of Cuzco.
Turn 40: All three roads done. Settler Two done, he runs all the way to Sidon.

So, there it is. Any feedback? Really, I just want some discussion about what to do. That plan was done with assumption that the third city would be in the south between the silver and the wheat, so the roads could be built elsewhere if the city would go elsewhere.