Heroes and abilities

[Seravy]

Agree emphatically with Baghtru on the armor/shields: caster only in chain.

That's a pretty good idea and would work really well if we make those warrior mage type heroes have lower MP levels than the pure mage types.

I don't think I'd ever want to give up the +4 attack, +4 defense or any other item power for 10 spell skill, but I guess leaving it available does no real harm, actually making such an item is wasteful and not worth it anyway. And it keeps the possibility open to have one made if you only need that 10 in the early game to cast your level 2 spell at level 1.

My main concern is plate mail : it already has very few options and hard to fill all 4 slots on it, but taking away caster it gets even worse. You can have high defense, a low resistance most heroes won't need, and all that's left are special powers which your realm might or might not have. You can't have attack or movement in it or other stats.

[Nelphine]

Maces, wands, staves at +20, everything else at +10? I'd be ok with that. Would gives maces a place, since I never use them currently. (Personally, I'd like to do something to make axes better than swords as well, but at least they're different.)

[Seravy]

Currently swords do skill and defense, maces do resistance and less defense and skill, axes do movement and work with thrown but offer no defensive stats. All of them have a role albeit axes are somewhat marginal (you either need windwalking or a thrown hero to have a reason for making an axe). Maybe it would be interesting if we made axes default to having 1-2 more attack, like plate mails have defense?

I'm not sure I like having the +10 skill on accessories, not only would I never want to craft such an item, but it also raises the chance of random generated items (AI crafted or found) to be garbage, wasting a slot and precious points on an ability I'd never really care to have. I also would never waste a weapon slot for +20 skill, unless the item is for the Illusionist. Those slots are too precious. For 40 skill I would consider losing my defense, attack, hit, touch ability, or spell charges in my weapon but for 20 it's obviously never worth it. So overall this suggestion helps in eliminating skill from items completely, as it only offers it exactly at the amount you would not want to have there. I don't like that. (On a non-staff item I'm fine with having 0-20 as those items are for melee caster heroes. If I prioritize skill there, it means I'm not using the hero to attack so I don't need the attack related options. But on a ranged mage hero I would never avoid using the ranged attack because unlike melee, ranged does not put the hero in danger. So putting skill on those weapons is not worth it unless it costs so much less than the other options that I can pick it when I can't afford a good item.)

...btw Spell Charges go up to 280 skill (4x Call to Arms) of value, but even something as cheap as web is 40. Compared to that, limiting weapons to 20 spell skill sounds really bad.

[Nelphine]

Right, so for you, skill isn't worth it. For someone else it is. That's the definition of a good ability. There are lots of things you can have on weapons; you don't need to use skill. Whereas, I would often take 10 skill (let alone 20) over almost all of the special abilities you can get, over resistance (yes, I would take 10 skill over 4 resistance), over small amounts of defense, over small amounts of offense. 20 skill kicks it over even things like 4 offense.

Spell charges are crap. The only spell charges I would ever care for are web, and flame strike. (And maybe massacre.) They absolutely ARE worth a lot more skill; that doesn't interest me. It's about turn 1, with as low a level hero as possible.

[Seravy]

Even if it's about turn 1, having the Flame Strike/High Prayer etc in the item is better than having 20 skill.

[Nelphine]

Sure. And more expensive. And doesn't give you the option to upgrade to a better spell as you research new ones. And doesn't let you benefit in the capital in any way. And doesn't let you trade out for other abilities if your particular spell isn't effective in a particular battle (flame strike but against efreeti). Versatility is important to me.

[Seravy]

eh, making artifacts is for endgame. The only thing that matters is to max out all 4 slots to provide as much as possible. For imperfect items, the stuff I found is good enough...
maybe I played too much Artificer recently. Also, if I play Sorcery I have Focus Magic for skill. If I play Life I have Heroism (level 4 is enough for all but Flame Strike). I'd never need to create an item with those. At the same time Chaos and Death aren't about heroes. Investing into them is usually a mistake (Soul Linker with Chaos Channels excluded). Which leaves Nature but Nature heroes regenerate and Nature does not have important combat spells (aside from web which doesn't need extra MP. Yes, there is Call Lightning and Entangle, but that's only two spells and one doesn't require turn 1 casting.)

So no I can't really locate that mystery situation when I'd need to create a "Spell Skill +X" weapon with no other stuff on it (or one at all). It's not a relevant ability.
Not even with Chaos or Death. If I want to cast more Flame Strikes or Massacres, I attack with two stacks of crap first then send the heroes. It's not like anything except the capital needs that much turn 1 spells.
Life+Sorcery might have a lot of combat globals but you'd need to be ultra-lucky to have all of them actually in your book as three are very rare. Also all but those can be cast with a Heroism+Focus Magic hero and likely still could in the new system.

I understand why it would be a good tactic in theory but I can't seem to find any practical application where it's worth it. Especially as such an item without defensive stats means the hero won't live to cast the spell...

I'd consider trading away 4x Spell Charges for 40 MP a fair deal. The MP is more versatile...but it only pays for 1 spell unless I want to use commons, even then usually only 2-3, rarely 4 and almost never more. The charges have no versatility but allow casting more spells, and the hero can STILL use their own MP to cast spells if I need a different spell (unless they are not a caster but then the caster item won't help them). But trading it for 20 MP? Far too much difference, half of a rare spell when I could have 4?

[Nelphine]

Right, but aside from flame strike, and web, there's almost NEVER a spell that is worth casting 4 times over attacking with a hero. Take all the effort into building the item with spell charges, and its more important to give them better attack and defenses instead.

So, fairly rare occassions, +10 or +20 skill matters (and this is one of the ONLY two item slot abilites that affects overland). But only in ultra rare occassions do spell charges matter.

Spell charges directly compete with what the hero can do multiple times. This doesn't work out. Spell skill (and spell charges x1) compete with what the hero can do on the first turn of combat. This can, in specific circumstances, work out.

And 1x High Prayer is still more expensive than +20 spell skill (let alone +10).

[Seravy]

Right, but aside from flame strike, and web, there's almost NEVER a spell that is worth casting 4 times over attacking with a hero. Take all the effort into building the item with spell charges, and its more important to give them better attack and defenses instead.

Ok, so I put webx4 into my weapon. In all other cases I just make the item have offense or defense.
You have just proven Skill +X is worthless as is and we need to make it have a higher impact per item slot used.

So, fairly rare occassions, +10 or +20 skill matters (and this is one of the ONLY two item slot abilites that affects overland).

Yeah, rare is the keyword here. But you will find such items frequently. So it eats away at general item quality which is a high price to pay, while the benefit is marginal : the human might, in fairly rare occasions (I'd say 1 out of 20 games) be able to cast a spell a level or two earlier. It has no such benefit for the AI who can't equip based on that.

Spell charges directly compete with what the hero can do multiple times. This doesn't work out. Spell skill (and spell charges x1) compete with what the hero can do on the first turn of combat. This can, in specific circumstances, work out.

Which is exactly why the Spell Skill needs to be in the same item.
You pick one : You make a hero that works for multiple turns - pick attack, hit, doom, illusion, spell charges, etc. You make a hero that works for turn 1 - pick Spell Skill+40 and maybe some defense if the hero can't survive a turn otherwise.

This forces a decision so when you have a hero with high skill it will be bad at doing things on later turns, and when you have a hero with high offense, it won't have extra spell skill.

This is exclusive to weapons : on armor and accessories, there is no such competition (you can't have hit, can't have touch attacks, can have less or no attack, and can't have spell charges). So if Armor or Accessories have any skill at all, we lose this decision process - you can have all the usual stuff on the weapon, have skill on the other two items, and still have a hero who is both good on turn 1, and later.

Note that this 40/0/0 distribution still allows you to do what you want and make a +10 or 20 skill weapon. But it has to be the weapon so you need to commit yourself to your strategy instead of throwing it on top of the usual item set as the 4th power in an accessory or plate mail which you currently can.

You might not try to do both, but it's a thing - you can have enough skill to cast 60+ MP spells on turn 1 and still have all the stats needed to do max damage attacks. (maybe you need to sacrifice a defensive power or two, but sometimes not, not every hero needs or every book combination allows filling all 8 slots on those items. Which leaves "Spell Skill +20" as the "might as well put this here to not leave it empty" solution, enabling your turn 1 spell strategy even if the player isn't trying to go for that.)

I myself notices how I often end up casting so much turn 1 stuff that I won the battle just by that - but I never specialize my heroes from it. It's just the side effect from having high MP pool heroes and putting skill+20 into leftover slots, usually with the reasoning of "this lets me cast an extra Healing, what if I end up needing one more? Better than the empty slot...".


Also note that it doesn't have to be 40/0/0, if it's 30/0/0 or 20/0/0 that still works, albeit at 20 I feel the benefit is too low to care and will not be enough to actually enable big spells on nonLife, nonSorcery heroes. But it does have to be X/0/0 otherwise the player doesn't need to make a choice and can have the best of both worlds.

[Nelphine]

I have no idea why you think 40/0/0 is better than 20/10/10.

40/0/0 means I only spend one item slot for 40 skill. 20/10/10 means you have to sacrifice 3. That's a WAY higher cost. It also means you can't find one random item and have your spell skill complete; you need to 3.

Putting it on all THREE means you have to commit to the strategy; putting it all on the weapon just means you need to get lucky.