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superdeath · July 13th, 2018, 18:27

looking for a site to host your images? could use what i do, its free... imgur.com

Coeurva

I may be biased of course because OT4E is dedlurking me in PB40, but I think you're misjudging him: The reason why he read Gavagai's thread (and only his) was to understand why Gav posted a sub request in Civ General, mentioning that he thought the game had become infused with bad blood, and try to convince him that the game isn't lost, and because his own in-game situation was laughably inert and unsalvageable anyway, but he also knew it would take some time for Carthage to die from there. Then he posted some encouragement to Gavagai publicly, rather than sending a PM, to be as transparent as possible about his intent, and was also disappointed that no lurker had tried to do something like this before him (which was visible because nobody posted in Gavagai's thread or the sub request thread, nor did Gav retract his request, though I suppose this was because nobody felt they could or should convince Gav to continue?) so that he felt compelled to do it. Mild spoiler I suppose, but he tried to do essentially what Lewwyn has done for pindicator this game (and he tried the same for me in PB37 btw, where he was a global lurker, which also supports his character in this case), and that is more beautiful to read the effects of than any Oracle into Civil Service slingshot or whatever. I very much doubt OT4E reads player threads on the regular or for any dishonourable reason.

Yeah, he could have handled this better (notify the players/lurkers first of what you're about to do, since you have the burden of making yourself clear, not they) and with more care for the "precedent" this sets (not all legislations even have regard for this concept), and I understand why you're pissed, but this was not an attempt to cheat or even a violation of the RB spirit imo ("to become friends with those you play with").

Boldly Going Nowhere · July 23rd, 2018, 23:44

I was mostly tongue-in-cheek suggesting that OT4E be game admin. Really I don't think that would be a good outcome as impartiality could not be ensured if his exit from the game created any hard feelings with players in the game. Also, should you appoint someone to enforce the rules who so blatantly can't abide by them?

--

Anyway, I'm posting because I got an out-of-sync error message when trying to log in. An update is in order. Starting on T136, I have cleared out Mysticism, Polytheism, Literature (Heroic Epic completed this turn), Priesthood (I took a run at The Parthenon), Monotheism, Monarchy, Feudalism, and Code of Laws. This turn I start Guilds and can almost 1t it.

Burying the lede, I also declared war on Rusten and captured a border city last turn. He captured it back this turn after I left it defended by only the attacking unit. He had a CR2 axe nearby and it is easier for me to manage a recapture than try to hold. I did not build up in power for the war. I instead relied on the geopolitical situation to, hopefully, make inexpensive, limited gains. I'm not 100% sure this will work out but it is worth the try.

Here's the situation as I understand it: Mackoti is filleting Rusten with knigs and will undoubtedly have Musketeers soon is now researching Chemistry so he has completed Gunpowder. (Aside: is there a GS bulb incoming from his PHI/GL? yikes

Not impossible, notes below*) Mack also has Astronomy. I have nothing that can stand up to a combined Musketeer/knight stack except...nothing. Pikes and castles are about as good as anyone can hope for at this point, and I have both. But he has an assymetric advantage on the seas that I can't counter now, and likely until the end of the game. So one way or the other I need to just try to stay on his good side to survive, which basically means trying to be thornier than the rest of the buffet. It would help if I built up power, yes.

Anyway, Mack can continue to carve up Rusten then consolidate and work on the rest of us at his leisure. He tried to war/peace Naufrager but Nauf, to his credit, appears to be having none of it. This is a good news, bad news situation for me. Good news is that it ties up mack's forces and prevents him from destroying Rusten immediately. Bad news is that this allows Rusten to move units in my direction, which he has done. When I declared on Rusten it was not obvious that mack would have to divert units south to deal with nauf but now that nauf has razed a mack city it is apparent that this will happen. This development combined with Rusten erecting walls and, apparently, upgrading archers into LBs on his border is going to make this war more expensive than I want so I am probably going to just take my main objective, the city I tried to snipe cheaply 20t or more ago, and raze one near my heroic epic city that Rusten took from superdeath. That city is culturally crushed and I don't like it being that close. I think I can probably live with the other one even if I'd like it for my own.

[Update: after playing this is exactly what I have done, taken Rusten's northern border city that, I think, fits better in my empire, and razed the eyesore crammed minimum distance between me, dtay, and rusten. Superdeath...man, just no. Gotta let those cities breathe a little bit. I then sniped a couple of workers, positioned stacks to show willingness to end hostilities without giving up tactical flexibility, and offered peace.]

The main issue I'm dealing with is my longevity in the game. I've got another 2 weeks or so left to play until baby gets here and then I'm unreliable for a long stretch of time for playing turns. I'd prefer to have a thorny empire with some interesting options for a replacement player to decide among rather than a slog of a war that ultimately weakens both me and Rusten and allows mack to take us both out when we're gassed from fighting each other. When this war looked like an easy 5-6 cities, while mack was continuing to steamroll ahead undistributed through Rusten's core cities, that looked like a reasonable goal, despite my 10th ranked army size. Honestly, that number is higher than it was even 3 turns ago. I haven't invested much into this. I've just tried to read the game situation and take exactly what I think I can get away with. Now that it looks more like a slog, I want to peace out. I think Rusten will probably take the peace deal. If he doesn't, well, fine. Guilds in 2t and I've built barracks, stables, and colosseums in several cities. Add Vassalage in 2t with the GA and...yeah. There's those 3 promo knights he was certainly looking for in his Heroic Epic/SoZ city, but now they're on the wrong side of the war.

Elsewhere, dtay teched guilds/banking/HBR (in that order: man, go HBR first and prebuild some HAs or stables) recently. I'm actively scouting his border. dtay's army is on his far border near Dreylin and his cities near me are defended by a single unit, ancient age trash, or pure goodwill. And he doesn't have engineering as far as I can tell (have tech visibility/have noted his scouting movements). So I could make an attack there, but again, I just don't have the time to dedicate to a long war, and he has city count advantage. It would be an uphill slog that I would probably lose, maybe eek out a stalemate, but lacking any other goal than survival I think it's probably not a great idea. I would normally attempt if I had a less hegemonic neighbor than mack, but as things stand, for game balance it's better to not risk that fight. It would probably just end up deciding the game for everyone, throwing mack more of an easy win than he may otherwise have. Our border is de-escalated, not roaded, and perfectly friendly now. Best to keep it that way.

I also thoroughly scouted Rusten before the wardec. And I'm scouting mack's border with yet another sentry every turn so I'll know if/when he turns his eyes this way. In addition to good troop position knowledge, I also have 2 (two!) sacred fish/fish deals with mack, as well as an iron/iron that we both declined, then returned. So as far as you can trust the human cyborg mack, I trust him for now. But I'm also vigilant.

The obvious topic I have not yet discussed is trying to organize a dogpile against mack. Here's my thinking on that. It's the old prisoner's dilemma. I'm not in a winning position and I am guaranteed to hurt my position by fighting mack (not to mention my enjoyment of my shitty sandcastles). If others who are contending to win (TBS, maybe in 50 turns Commodore and any others throwing down Astronomy cities) want to take the risk and that creates an opening for me to benefit, I'm happy to throw my contribution into the pile. Failing that, good luck fellas. Fish for fish is sacred until I can get maximum value from the backstab. shhh

I've got some pics but you can enjoy this thousand word great wall of text instead because I haven't set up an imgur account yet and it's late. Let me know if you have thoughts or have a pulse. I'll post as the war continues, if it continues, if anyone is still reading.

*

Fenn · July 24th, 2018, 07:11

I'm reading! And alive, to boot. Thanks for the in-depth update, this is an interesting part of the world right now so it's good to see what all the players are thinking. Images are for nerds anyway.

If you want an exciting end, it's not too late for an Always War variant mischief

DaveV · July 24th, 2018, 08:14

Also reading. Good luck with the baby!

superdeath · July 24th, 2018, 09:31

(July 23rd, 2018, 23:44)Boldly Going Nowhere Wrote: [Update: after playing this is exactly what I have done, taken Rusten's northern border city that, I think, fits better in my empire, and razed the eyesore crammed minimum distance between me, dtay, and rusten. Superdeath...man, just no. Gotta let those cities breathe a little bit. I then sniped a couple of workers, positioned stacks to show willingness to end hostilities without giving up tactical flexibility, and offered peace.]

I needed more cities, bang

and it had food!

Boldly Going Nowhere

Here's the plan. Great scientist spawned last turn or 2t ago. I have an academy already so this is the 200gpp. It will fire a GA this turn. Civic swap to caste, vassalage, OR. Choose Hinduism as religion and spread. I hate to feed mack's shrine but Hindu is by far most prevalent in my cities. We have Guilds so knights are a good build for now. Coastal cities should start pre-building galleys to upgrade to galleons. The goal of the golden age is to double-bulb Astronomy, then finish the GA in Bureaucracy (CS) and Mercantilism (Banking). DO NOT TECH CS UNTIL AFTER BULBING ASTRO. Doing so kills the bulb path because it opens Paper which throws everything off. Even with 2 bulbs you probably need ~1000b to finish Astro so overflow from optics if you have to.

Wrap up the war vs Rusten unless you just want to fight. I've not advanced troops after the initial capture/raze that more favorably reset the border. Free overseas land is cheaper than fighting into longbows. I didn't peace out initially but have made no further aggressive moves. Rusten is likely willing to give peace a chance with a new player. If peace is secured, go all out building settlers, galleons, and some LBs for the islands. May be good to throw some caravels out a few turns early to get a jump on exploration. Best guess is go north or northwest to find new land as this matches the contour of the main continent. There are hundreds if not into the thousand or thousands of land tiles available.

Workers need to workshop what hasn't been cottaged. New cottages will never pay off now. Some farm chaining will he required at CS. I've marked one project in the east already. Keep active sentry network on mack and on dtay, who recently can build knights. We have good relations with both for now and strategic situation indicates likelihood of partnerships continuing. Whoever takes over has initiative on geopolitical situation so set your own course. But my recommendation for best in game position improvement is to colonize islands.

GPP cities are the two islands, I'd Bang Ivanka, and the cottage city north of the capital which will work on a merchant. The others can do scientists. Heroic Epic city is SHITHOLE COUNTRY and it can 1t knights with the odd catapult thrown in for overflow. If you want to start on an artist then maybe the city near mackoti but that is likely to create unhelpful border tension. There is another good food surplus at the sugar, banana, oasis city. That one is destined for good hammers. I haven't worked out which city bulbs in which order but the merchant was intended to bulb civil service. However, many civs have this tech already and 2 arrow bonus means it's cheap so the merchant can trade mission or save for future GA most likely, unless the current GA is running short to get Bureau and Merc. Gotta hit those targets to stay close to relevancy. I'd suggest getting the GM before having to starve that city too much so prioritize sooner than the other GPP cities. The cottages are important there and has one of only 2 markets.

Check build queues. Moai has been started in one of the island cities. The other will get the national epic. Workers keep chopping jungle, setting up workshops and farms.

Let me know if you have questions. I'll stick around.

Boldly Going Nowhere · August 4th, 2018, 13:27

Gavagai, I have no meaningful interactions with plako. A scouting chariot is in his territory and we have open borders. Can't see any possible issue from his perspective.

Gavagai · August 5th, 2018, 05:36

I took over, all good. I did not go with GA-now plan as scientists would be too slow. Instead, I want to go Optics-Banking. Then I will start a GA with merc/vassalage/org at the start, Bureau/theo at the end.
Also, do not see a point in peace with Rusten. He is not a threat anyway and there is a chance to snipe another city.

Gavagai · August 5th, 2018, 05:48

And this game was decided at T0: Mack started right between 4 inexperienced players. Seriously, we should stop trying to do this "balanced handmade maps" thing. They take an enormous amount of effort, they are not interesting to play on and they do not bring in any balance anyway. You can generate a few random maps, choose the most reasonable one, fix the most glaring issues and send it to players. Would take three-four hours.
The best map I remember playing on was the one in PB22 (? the one which was won by Gawdzak with an island start). IIRC, it was made using this method.

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